What other motorcycles handle like a VFR?

The 3rd gen was my first big motorcycle, after previous experience with smaller 2 wheeled vehicles and motorcycles.

It took me several months to really figure out how to ride the VFR. I assumed this is just how sports bikes handle. But then I bought a CBR600F4i, and it felt very different. I found the CBR easy to ride, but it was just boring. I'm assume it made better lap times around a track, but it was not as fun to throw around in the twisties. The CBR just kinda rolls left/right and it doesn't feel like you're doing anything. And the line changes, kinda continuously, all the time. Wind blows? Line changes. The VFR felt like it was on rails in corners or on the highway. And in the switchbacks, I feel a moment of free-fall while flicking the bike on its side. And it's... fun.

If I have ridden more kinds of motorcycles, maybe the way the VFR handles isn't that unique?

I assume part of the difference is the taller COG from the V engine. There are a lot of V twin sport bikes, though. Do they handle like a VFR, too? Does an adventure or dual sport handle sorta like a VFR? I'm wondering if there are other types of bikes I could be looking for, to widen my options. I'm just looking for a good deal on a used bike, primarily. And the 3rd gen VFR is my reference point for handling and ergos and riding comfort. So if you leave out that awesome engine sound, what other bikes should I be looking at?

And, if anyone has an opinion on it: Do all the later 800cc VFR's handle the same as the older 750's?

 

The CBR is a race oriented bike. The VFR is a sport-touring bike. The CBR is naturally going to be more "twitchy" in handling so that it is easier to corner with in race situations and the weight is going to be held a bit lower.

And adventure bike is going to be more top heavy than the VFR. I think most of them handle pretty well but you are going to feel the higher center of gravity in cornering.

 

Thanks!

Yeah, I WANT to feel the higher center of gravity. I think that's why my VFR's felt like they drop into corners rather than just rolling/tilting.

I've sat and thought about it. When the bike rolls, it has to tilt around the COG, to some extent. So the higher the COG, the more the tires will actually lift away from the road, when you tilt the bike fast (with a nice, sharp counter-steering pulse). The suspension will have to extend, maybe a few mm's, and for that brief moment while tilting the bike, the front end will get lighter. So the steering will get lighter in that moment? And so you can hold the wheel of the VFR straight while you're falling into a lean. The bike will continue to go straight, no centrifugal force, yet. Then after "saving it up" you can slam the bars into the turn at the last moment, and the turning and centrifugal force starts abruptly, and now you're not "falling."

With the lower COG, I suspect the front end of the CBR stays better planted through this. So as soon as the bike starts to tilt, the wheel starts to turn in. You can't hold the wheel straight while the bike falls into a lean. The steering forces are too strong without that brief letoff of the VFR. So the bike starts to turn exactly when it starts to tilt. So there's zero separation between tilting and turning. Hence, there's no "free fall". Your line starts to change instantly, but more continuously/gradually, without being able to make as sharp or sudden an arc out of nowhere, like on the VFR. You can make the VFR dance on a string.

I almost have to try an adventure bike now, just to see if it acts like I expect.

Since the VFR was my first sport bike after learning on a cruiser, I associated that feeling with a sports bike. The CBR feels like riding a cruiser, just with more clearance and better weight distribution. Kinda boring.

All of my piliions on the VFR would startle first time in a tight turn. Grabbing on tightly, due to that feeling of falling. I'm pretty sure most of them thought we were about to crash! But after the first time, nothing but fun! Then they look forward to each turn. Doesn't happen on the CBR.

 

Not quite an accurate analysis - With a sports bike you can transition from straight to turn so fast it will make your head spin.
Also due to the VFR's higher COG & more relaxed wheelbase you have to put in more work to achieve the same result than from a true sports bike. Thats why its also easier to ride high mileage days on a VFR - its a lot more relaxed than a 'fireblade' - except when you are trying to keep up with them - lol...

Sports bikes come into their own when 'ridden' - not just sat on and drove.

If you are riding a sports bike as a commuter bike with no turning then that's why its easy... - its not working....

 

Raise the rear ride height 25mm, and raise the fork tubes in the clamps 10-15mm. That will get you the exact feel you are looking. Thurn Motorsport used to sell link plates that raised the ride height +20 and +25. Not sure if they still do. Also make sure that the eccentric is rotated so that the axle is at it's lowest point, before putting the chain on. You can adjust chain length to get it in the sweet spot. It makes a significant difference on the later 800's.

 

Hi, thanks for the input.

I think you may assume I only care about straight line comfort. I'm specifically concerned about the twisties, though.

I have been researching the net, and I found a lot of good different perspectives and reasons why COG affects handling. And apparently, some of the motorcycle magazine used to list the COG height of every sportbike until about 2002. But they no longer do so.

From what I have gathered, the 2001 CBR600F4i I owned perhaps has a relatively low COG, at least compared to something like say an R6?

Also scratching the SV650 off the list. And I'm more dubious of naked bikes in general.

I found a post on reddit from a few years ago, where someone posted this.

"Here's a few [height of the COG]

SV650 (01) - 428mm

CRF450 (03) - 514mm

R6 (09) - 527mm"

The R6 is famous for being "tippy" and for "falling" into a turn. Apparently the engine design with a "stacked shifter" puts more weight up high than on the CBR. I am pretty sure the 3rd gen VFRs also have a high COG compared to the 2001 CBR F4i. It sure feels like it. And the V4 is supposedly top heavy.

Yeah, the CBR can turn just as fast as the VFR. It's not a complaint about how fast it can take a corner. It can also roll very fast, as you have said. The mass might be better centralized on the CBR, allowing it to roll faster than the VFR. It feels so.

But my complaint is how it feels.

I think when the roll axis gets high enough, the contact patch rolls more outside the line as the bike pitches over. But when you pitch the bike the contact patch doesn't just move left/right. If the suspension were frozen (and because the bike can't get lower to the road, instantly, because of inertia), the tires would actually arc up and away from the road surface. And in that moment, the normal force between the road the tire gets lighter. So when you flick the VFR in with a good sharp countersteering pulse to make it pitch very quickly, this allows you to hold the wheel straight while the bike is pitching over. The steering is light enough in that moment for you to do this. This is where it feels like you are in free fall. Then after holding off until the last moment, you can turn the wheel into the turn to catch the bike at your desired arc. This is how it feels to me when flicking in the VFR.

On the CBR, the roll axis is lower. So the contact patch is closer to the roll axis. So the front stays more planted when the bike pitches. So when the CBR rolls, the front wheel turns in at the same time. Hence there's no feeling of freefall. As the bike leans, it simulatneously starts to turn. Centrifugal force kicks in. You don't "fall" into a turn on the CBR. You just roll. You can get it on its side very fast, but it's continous/smooth and always in balance. The VFR you bite off chunks, and there's a slight separation between the leaning and the turning, when you throw it around aggressively enough.

I hope this makes sense.

I have been looking at used R6's, FWIW. Probably not ideal for comfort, but I'm curious enough to add it to my bikes of interest.

 

Norcal Boy, thanks for the idea. I didn't see your post before my last one.

That's what I should have done, I guess. I bought the CBR used, and maybe it was lowered, even? Dunno. I think you know what I'm getting at.

I replaced that CBR with another VFR years ago. But then I sold the VFR in my last move, after spending 6 years riding it with only half the fairings, after T boning a car making a left turn.

Suspension tweaks open up more possibilities for my shopping list! Thanks for the suggestion.

If the figures I found from reddit are accurate, then suspension tweaks have a limit, though. The SV650's COM is about 4" lower than an R6!?

edit: I was hoping on the VFR forum, more people would get what I'm talking about. But I guess the roads where you live and the speeds you adhere to have a lot to do with it. It's way more obvious at high speeds in tight switchbacks. But my VFR's also had a distinct feeling in sudden, low speed maneuvering. I had 3 of the 3rd gens, so it wasn't a custom setup/suspension doing this.

Sure, there's the sound and the ergos. But if it weren't for the handling/steering, I probably would have never looked back after getting that CBR. On the CBR, I felt like the bike could only understand two words. More and less. It was so quick-steering it could approximate anything with just those words. But that's all you had. I spoke an entire language with my VFR's through the handlebars.

 

Don't underestimate the difference in "feel" different brands/contours/models of tires can create, too.