VFR vs. Ducati MotoGP firing order

I remember reading that the new Ducati GP bike fired its four cylinders in a manner similar to a twins (they call it TwinPulse -- each bank of cylinders firing at the same time). I think they may have changed the order a little later on to increase traction, but the point remains that they feel they could emulate the torque of a twin (doubling the amount of torque as a result of firing two pistons at the same time) and still have the ability to have higher revs though the lower inertia and reciprocating mass resulting from lighter parts and a shorter stroke.

In the GP world with their incredible horsepower different companies have different philosophies on this because what's important to them is somehow getting the power to the ground in a usable manner -- too much power too quickly can make a GP bike unrideable. But in the case of the VFR with somewhat modest horsepower this is not an issue.

I love the torque of my 100 V-twin but wish it did not run out of revs so quickly. Theoretically it seems that you can achieve both the low-end torque and the higher high-end rate of torque through a TwinPulse-type system. Makes me wonder what the VFR would be like with this type of engine, and since it has the inherently good mechanical balance of a 90-degree engine why Honda has never gone in this direction.

I'm no expert on the above, and there are probably a lot of good reasons for the way the VFR is today but if anything this should provide fodder for a good discussion

 

here is a link that gets to some of your ideas

2007 Ducati Desmosedici RR MotoGP Replica Sport Bike - Sport Rider Magazine


"For the first tests, Ducati Corse produced two versions of the Desmosedici engine, one with a regular firing order, and the other with paired cylinders firing simultaneously (Twin pulse). It soon became clear that the latter version put the engine components through excessive strain, so it was decided to use the first configuration. Subsequently, starting from the 2004 Dutch TT at Assen, thanks to the evolution of the engine, the irregular firing Twin pulse version was used which gave better driveability."

 

and a tech spec

Desmosedici Tech Specifications - Motorcyclist Magazine

interesting, only 77ft/lbs of torque, my 999S twin makes more like 80... but only revs to 10,500 this thing goes to 13,800 rpm in street trim (179hp) and more like 16,000 in race trim (220+ hp)

a beast!

 

I'm getting a whole 65ft/lbs of torque (at the rear wheel) at 5,500 rpm on my Moto Guzzi V11 Sport with revs reaching a stratospheric 8,000 rpm. Have not gotten on a Ducati for many years and am afraid if I do I might never come back.

 

thought the duck was a twin?

 

i looked up ducati website yeah uhhh weres the 4 cyclinder version they seem to have left that bike out of the web page all the rest are v-twins??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:oh yeah the world superbike is a twin but could not find the gp model????damn computer please leave a link...........

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

don't know if this answers the question or
asks a different one, but in any event, it appears that firing order has been a consideration of the engineering staff @ Honda for a while.....


1990 - 1998
Though the 499 cc V-4 could produce more than 200 horsepower (150 kW), chassis development, sophisticated engine management and an Australian named Mick Doohan made the NSR500 a legend in the 1990s. Extensive testing in 1991 led to a new aluminum chassis patterned on the successful RVF750 endurance racer. Honda unveiled a revolutionary idea with a 1992 V4 that was timed to fire all four cylinders within 65-70 degrees of crankshaft rotation - the so-called "Big-Bang" engine. Along with a balance shaft that neutralized the single crankshaft engine's gyroscopic effects, the 1992 NSR500 was a breakthrough. Emphasizing acceleration over sheer speed, Doohan used this engine to win five of the first seven 500 Grand Prix races of 1992. Although a badly broken leg denied Doohan's bid for the 1992 World Championship, he would not be denied for long. Beginning in 1994, Doohan and the NSR500 won five consecutive 500 cc World Championships. Winning 12 of 15 races in 1997, he broke a single-season win record that was set in 1972. Combining for 54 total 500 Grand Prix wins, no man and machine in modern history had dominated the 500 World Championship so thoroughly. From around 1997, the NSR500 again featured the older "Screamer" engine in some factory racers, with Mick Doohan preferring the higher outright power of this design despite it being much more difficult to harness.

 

doesnt look like a twin to me

 

Its a 4, as are all bikes in MGP

 

The irregular firing order and "big bang" motors have been around since the two stroke days.
I think the biggest leap has been the V-5 990, the idea of using an extra rod and piston to make power instead of a counter balance shaft ( that robs power from engine ) was a great idea and was also built and used by Kenny Roberts ( Kenny's V-5 used a counter balance shaft as well ) so as far as technical firsts it seems Honda leads the way.
But can't be 100% sure but I think Yamaha is the first to sell to public w/ R-1

 

Firing Order

Hi guys

first of all compliments for your wonderful bikes I have seen some of the pics in other threads and they are amazing


I found this thread on the internet and it seems to fit perfecty my uni assignment specifications
Does anyone know what the big bang firing order of the Honda RC211V5 would be? or otherwise how to "calculte" it?

I`m trying to sort out a big bang order configuration for a modified version (800cc) of the Honda engine in Ricardo wave.

Thanks in advance for any answer

 

I think Yamaha tried to get the best of both engine configurations: High torque (like V engines) and high revving (like 4 inline engines) the developed the CROSS PLANE CRANKSHAFT. A 4 in line engine that behaves like a V4.

A friend of mine owns a 2009 Yamaha R1 and it sounds like my previous VFR 5th Gen.( and mine is cheaper¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡)

 

the crossplane crank was developed before yamaha even made motorcycles.

 

CBR - I4
000----090----180----270----360----090----180----270----360
000----090----180----270----360----450----540----630----720
-1----------------2----------------4-----------------3----------------1-


VFR - 90Deg V
000----090----180----270----360----090----180----270----360
000----090----180----270----360----450----540----630----720
-1-----------------3------------------------2----------------4--------1-


RC30 - 90Deg V
000----090----180----270----360----090----180----270----360
000----090----180----270----360----450----540----630----720
-1--------4------------------------3--------2-----------------------1-


V4 2-Stroke (90 degree motor)
000----090----180----270----360
-1-------3--------2-------4-------1-

Screamer - V4 2-Stroke (180 degree motor)
000----090----180----270----360
1&3------------2&4------------1&3

Big Bang - V4 2-Stroke
000----090----180----270----360
-1-3-2-4---------------------1-3-2-4

Long Bang - I4 or V4 4-Stroke
000----090----180----270----360
-1-3-2-4---------------------1-3-2-4


The Ducati GP09 would mimic the Screamer V4 2 Stroke firing order.
The Ducati GP10 would mimic the Big Bang V4 2 Stroke firing order.
The VFR 90 degree firing order isn't close to either.

 

Details: 2009 Yamaha R1 crossplane crankshaft - Hell For Leather

All is explained in Ricardo.

 

best yamaha crossplane crank animation
YouTube - Yamaha YZF-R1 2009 Cross Plane crankshaft

it's balanced, no doubt. Yamahas claim to fame is not the conception of it, rather being the 1st to mass produce it outside of racing.

 

It seems we or at least some folks are at cross purposes. Anybody driving a rig with a V8 stuffed in it has a crossplane crank unless somehow they scored a Norden crank for a flathead Ford or Merc engine. Bikewise, the 54-55 MotoGuzzi 500cc V8 "dustbin" had a crossplane crank. Before Ford started stuffing V8s in his 1932 issue cars, Chevolet had already produced an OHV V8 with you guess it a crossplane crank. Probably some others too but the pedants will be scurrying to find them. Lord I love it when a plan comes together.

My old man once told me that the world didn't start the day I was born. I guess there was something to that after all.. WTF was it that some dude said? " Those who do not know thier history usually don't know shit about much else either." Of course the dude said that a long time ago so it might not apply.

 

thing is that i'm trying to design in ricardo a big bang HondaV5, not a straight4 Yamaha

 

Honda still refuses to give cylinder dimensions of the dohc, 20-valve unit, but has confirmed that the five cylinders are the same size (rather than the rear pair being slightly larger, as was rumored). There is also no word on firing order