How far can you lean before you lose traction?

Discussion in 'Anything Goes' started by Microwavable, Jun 15, 2018.

  1. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2004
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    110
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Between Phila. PA & Brooklyn, NY.
    Map
    Again, how much do you ride on the track vs street? specify the mileage would be great.

    Road debris are just part of riding, more of them on the streets vs track doesn't mean that you have to hit them when you see them.
     
  2. OOTV

    OOTV Insider

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    6,479
    Likes Received:
    949
    Trophy Points:
    143
    Location:
    Anaheim, Ca.
    I with you on that, I've actually done more track time in the past several months than I have ridden in the canyons in about a year. Our last stint in Malibu together was the last time I rode the canyons. Can't remember my last actual fun ride on public roads prior to that, other than my commuting but there I'm not worrying about lean angles and traction, I'm more concerned with inattentive drivers!
     
    Lint likes this.
  3. Lint

    Lint Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,805
    Likes Received:
    950
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Simi Valley, Ca.
    Map
    Except the times when you can do fuck all nothing about it. Jesus. When did you get a hard on for me?
     
  4. Lint

    Lint Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,805
    Likes Received:
    950
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Simi Valley, Ca.
    Map
    Why the fuck do I have to explain shit to you noob?

    You want mileage? Fine. Try 100,000+ in 8 years. Canyons, freeway, cross country, etc.

    Track days, at least 8, most of them within the past three months. Track mileage would be around 250 miles at least in one weekend, on a small track.

    What the fuck difference does it make to you?
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
    Diving Pete and OOTV like this.
  5. Lint

    Lint Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,805
    Likes Received:
    950
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Simi Valley, Ca.
    Map
    After ripping it around the track, where everything is controlled and you can actually see the turns coming up, the street loses its fun. I still enjoy it, but geeze, blind turns in Malibu and ACH, it's just not the same. Overcook a turn at Streets or Chuckwalla, you don't have to work about a car coming and turning you into a hood ornament.
     
  6. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    72
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Vista, CA
    Map
    Hanging off the opposite side is great for turning tight circles in parking lots. There's no way to turn tighter without doing a burnout and pivoting around the front wheel...
     
  7. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    72
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Vista, CA
    Map
    Looking good Lint! I like your homage to the 6th gen's black wedge under your wonderscreen. The first hard part that touches down when turning left on my 5th gen is the sidestand. The centerstand comes down first when turning right. The difference between what hits first on the left might be suspension setup; I'm up 15mm from stock at the rear and down 7mm in front.
     
  8. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2004
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    110
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Between Phila. PA & Brooklyn, NY.
    Map
    Only a few posts and we've been reduced to cursing and name calling, who's the noob in this forum?

    Assuming that you need to go fast in order to reach max lean angle is simply putting yourself in unnecessary danger on your bike.

    Assuming that max lean angle, safer riding conditions or road surfaces can only be reached found on the track is just untrue.

    Where I come from, this is how you reach max lean angles and test the traction limits of tires..



     
  9. Lint

    Lint Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,805
    Likes Received:
    950
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Simi Valley, Ca.
    Map
    You're new to this forum. Why exactly are you so interested in my mileage? I've been here for years, you haven't.
     
  10. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2004
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    110
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Between Phila. PA & Brooklyn, NY.
    Map
    I've been on this forum over 7 years longer than you, can you not read?

    Mileage would indicate how much experience you have, public road riding experience, not limited to US only, can allow you to learn far more than what you encounter on the track... even in a parking lot... knowing how to learn from riding in the streets if far more helpful in survival on motorcycles than high speed riding on the track.

    To get yourself familiar with maximum lean and limits of tire traction, does not necessarily involve endangering yourself on the track with maximum speed through corners.
    It can easily be done in a safer manner in a clean, empty parking lot without burning through designated tires and track fees.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  11. Lint

    Lint Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,805
    Likes Received:
    950
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Simi Valley, Ca.
    Map
    Please see screenshot. It's says, New Member. As I've yet to have my coffee, I guess my psychic powers and still asleep
    Screenshot_20180619-073414_Samsung Internet.jpg
     
  12. Lint

    Lint Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,805
    Likes Received:
    950
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Simi Valley, Ca.
    Map
    I completely disagree with your point of street riding makes you a better rider. Trackdays, with professional instruction does. Otherwise, you can keep repeating the same bad habits year after year after year. If no one is there to teach you the right way to do something, you're simply relying on happenstance to learn anything. Why? Get taught the CORRECT WAY, then repeat that. Braking is something that you will learn on the track in a way that you can't legally and safely learn on the street. Going from 120+ mph to trail braking into a turn could EASILY cost you your life, or save it.
    Learning how to correctly and smoothly get off of your bike quickly while braking and where to put the pressure on your bike and especially where NOT to, when approaching a surprise decreasing radius turn can make the difference between riding the rest of your trip, or riding in an ambulance.

    What mileage do you have? Specifically street and track? What classes have you taken? I've been personally trained one on one by WSBK/MotoAmerica Aussie David Anthony as well as spent time with California Superbike School riding coaches. You think I'm pulling this advice out of my ass? No. I've ridden wrong for THOUSANDS of miles. I've made it a point to learn our sport. It's nuances, the survival reactions Kieth Code discusses. I've tested what's taught by Yamaha Champions School and found it all valid. I've spent personal time with multi world champion rider Reg Pridmore and even found what he teaches to be valid.

    I'm not saying this to say look at how big my dick is. I'm stating this because in any endeavor there is a right and wrong way of doing something and over the past 100k miles I've done both. In the past near 1000 track miles in a couple of months, I've learned some valuable lesson, about tires, braking, leaning, body position, trusting the bike and especially tires. Try riding a track in 3rd and 4th gear, no brakes. That really gives you perspective.

    I honestly have not seen any actual advice from you, so I'm guessing you're just a troll, or Badbilly using another name. You've not really added anything to this conversation and I simply don't understand why you are on my ass so much.

    I have hit the ground, both from my own foolish f***ups and from shit on the ground, such as was the case in Feb 2016 when someone was maliciously pouring oil on Mulholland. Nothing could be done about that. I've also had my training kick in and save me from hitting a deer or over cooking a decreasing radius turn that was unmarked in the road in Montana.
    Leave me alone. My sole intention here is to help the fellow members get more enjoyment and safety out of their rides. What, honestly, are actually trying to add?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
    Gator likes this.
  13. Gator

    Gator Insider

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2012
    Messages:
    5,201
    Likes Received:
    811
    Trophy Points:
    143
    Location:
    Boynton Beach, FL
    Map
    Some good track time especially with good instructors will benefit you riding skills WAY WAY more than even a life time of street. Not only will track skills translate to much better street skills most of the guys I have rode for decades with on the track and street ride much more conservatively on the streets. Sure riding a lot of street miles in various kinds of situations build awareness skills, where danger lurks, where blind areas are, where stupid cagers are more likely to cause an accident ect, all good survival skills to know. But there is no substitute to learn how to handle a bike than on a track. Period. The canyon railers will probably grumble about this but after some track time they usually swallow their pride and learn more.
     
    Lint likes this.
  14. Lint

    Lint Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,805
    Likes Received:
    950
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Simi Valley, Ca.
    Map
    Truth
     
  15. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2004
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    110
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Between Phila. PA & Brooklyn, NY.
    Map
    Clearly using condensed version of the forum doesn't allow you to see the full picture, not my fault if complete version of this forum doesn't show up on your phone..

    [​IMG]

    Cursing, name calling and assuming who I am, what I do is not necessary, just stick with topic of thread.

    I've been riding motorized 2-wheel vehicles for over 2 decades, over 1.5 M miles among different bikes. Not including off-road riding miles.
    I've been pedaling 2-wheel over 3 decades, my riding skills comes from being a bicycle messenger, surviving the streets on bicycles among traffic in SF, SEA, NYC, PHL.
    I've take track lessons with BMW, NESBA. I've done track day events for over a decade at Pocono, NJMP, NYST, VIR, Watkins Glen.

    You can disagree all you want, but reality is that you can hone your practical riding skills for everyday riding in a parking lot much easier, safer and far less expensive than riding on the track.

    I never said that track skills do not transfer to street riding, but skill of riding at 120 mph is not really practical for public streets where most of us ride, including yourself.
    If you want to burn your money on track fees and race tires every other track day to gain practical street riding skill that can easily be practiced in an empty parking lot.. that's up to you.

    In regard of brake usage, I never use brakes unless I have to, engine brake is plenty for most situation I encounter in my commute in NYC.
    In case of emergency situation, my first reaction is look for a way around instead of grabbing a fist full of brakes. That's learned from 3 decades of bicycling, where majority of forward moving momentum is generated by my legs, every time I use the brakes is just working against my own efforts; that's not something I prefer to do... like wasting money on the track riding 120 mph for practical street riding skills that I use majorily on everyday riding.
    See the truth, right?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  16. Lint

    Lint Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,805
    Likes Received:
    950
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Simi Valley, Ca.
    Map
    Who is going to be riding behind you seeing what you're doing wrong? Who is standing at the apex of your turns whatching for incorrect survival reactions kicking in that you're not even aware of? Who's correcting your approach and exit? Who's watching your body position, movement on the bike, braking points, bar pressure, etc? Who's watching you on a camera and correcting you?
    There is absolutely no substitute to riding coaches. Since you mentioned tires, how do you learn what tires ultimately can and cannot do? Riding 10/10ths on the street, with cops, cars, animals etc? I've ridden PR4 tires to the absolute limit, which taught me how to handle a sliding back tire. I've ridden through a Q3+ in one weekend, learning the limits of it too and learning that it can handle all of the power a VFR can put out, even shifting into 4th full throttle in the exit of a turn while still leaned over some. How are you going to learn that on the street? Exciting a turn on the street at over 100mph? No thank you. How are you going to read your wear, based on pressure and get advice from CSS's top mechanic?



    There is no sane/safe way to learn this in a parking lot.

    You say above that riding 120 on a track doesn't equate to the street. What about on the road at highway speed when you have to brake HARD to save your life? Or, as discussed above when a turn tightens and it's not marked. I guess we have to agree to disagree. If you don't know the true limits of your bike and tires, be they ST or sport, you still aren't riding as safe as you can. There is no substitute.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  17. OOTV

    OOTV Insider

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    6,479
    Likes Received:
    949
    Trophy Points:
    143
    Location:
    Anaheim, Ca.
    I think we can all agree that whether it’s at a track, parking lot or wherever you can find a place, PRACTICING yours skills is what matters! If one chooses to do the slow and precise turning of Gymkana or the fast way around a track, what ultimately makes a difference is knowing the best and correct way to manipulate your bike and practicing these skills.

    No offense Cat0020, but just because one rides many years and/or miles does not automatically make them a better rider. Not saying this is your case but I’ve seen riders who’ve claim to be at it for years (some I know who have) show very little knowledge of good riding techniques. Sometimes, over time, we lose skills we once knew and used as we get lazy and complacent and end up not keeping up with best practices. Whether you’re at the track or in a parking lot, having a coach is one of the best ways to maintain these skills as they can witness what you may be doing right or wrong much better than you can. This is often noticed when someone sees a picture of themselves leaned over in a curve and they see that their perceived lean angle at the time, was much less than they thought it was.

    As far as costing you more, that too is a misconception. Lint, sfdownhill and I do corner working for the California Superbike School often and other than paying for our bike gas (which would most likely happen regardless) and hotel if we choose a two day course to work, we pay nothing to use the track. Our time and support is the cost of being able to use the track and as Lint said, there are plenty of professionals there to ask advise or gain knowledge from.

    So saying one form of learning is better than another is not true, it may be a better way for you but you cannot assume it is better for all. We all learn at our own pace and methods, so to each their own and let’s keep this thread civil and agree to disagree if what others do to gain their skill and knowledge doesn’t fit your agenda.

    Cheers!
     
    Lint likes this.
  18. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2004
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    110
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Between Phila. PA & Brooklyn, NY.
    Map
    By the same token, would you say that, just because someone rides on the track few times a month, doesn't automatically make a better rider, for the street or track?
     
  19. Lint

    Lint Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,805
    Likes Received:
    950
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Simi Valley, Ca.
    Map
    Absolutely
     
  20. cat0020

    cat0020 Trumper

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2004
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    110
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Between Phila. PA & Brooklyn, NY.
    Map
    Well, it's the professional cyclist (bike messenger) in me. I emphasize on street riding skills that can be applied right front your driveway, cheaply obtained without trailering your motorcycle to a designated track, spend money on hotels to obtain riding skills that are likely to land you in trouble when practiced on public roads.

    That's from my experience of decades of street riding, track riding, off-road riding and bicycling. Your result may vary, but without the decades of experience in each discipline, surviving without incidents and still practicing every day.. can you honestly say that my personal experience has no merit? just a simple question.

    If any of you have ever done a Moto Gymkhana event, it is safer than riding high speed to test out the limits of your tires and allow your tires/brakes last longer than track riding, too.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
Related Topics

Share This Page