I'm Really Disappointed At Honda.

Discussion in 'General VFR Discussions' started by OCLandspeeder, Nov 12, 2018.

  1. BiKenG

    BiKenG New Member

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    Much as I like the VFR1200 (well, my version anyway) I don't see that as a solution for the OP. Loads of power, but it is heavy compared to the other bikes he's looking at. Personally, I don't think that's a problem for what I use it for and there's no way on earth I will have a fairing on any of my bikes. If I want windless comfort, I'll take the car. I like to feel the wind as it helps me to keep my speed down. It is no longer possible (here in the UK anyway) to ride like I used to and still keep my license. Riding a naked bike gives me all the fun and thrills, at a lower speed which is all I need as I don't commute and never ride on a motorway when I'm riding for pleasure. But we don't all have the same needs and requirements.

    My next bike for long distance will almost certainly be a new R1250GS. Great bike to ride and super comfortable which is more and more important as I get older. I cannot deal with low handlebars any more. That's just pain.

    It does seem to me that the VFR still does everything that is required by the OP, so why change? Nothing like a V4. :)
     
  2. BluRoad

    BluRoad New Member

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    ^^^ PM sent to BiKenG. ^^^
     
  3. BiKenG

    BiKenG New Member

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    I simply don't see it like that. The VFR1200F can do way more miles on a tank than probably any Ducati, but no-one moans about tank range on a Duc. I've ridden my eVo4 (modified VFR1200F) on several European trips and can easily see 180 miles between fill ups and that's not babying it along either. In any case, in my not insubstantial experience of organising European trips, I've not come across any group that wanted to ride for more than 120 miles between stops anyway and if pushed, most other bikes were getting low on fuel before my eVo4 was in trouble.

    Yes there are bikes that have a greater tank range, but I have never actually come across a need for it. The biggest problem with the VFR1200F was the imprecise fuel gauge that made riders think it was low when it wasn't. They then complain about not getting much fuel in the tank, never putting 2 and 2 together and still complaining about tank range. I calibrated my gauge and the eVo4 has a greater range than ANY other bike I've ever had. Mind you, I expect that'll no longer be true once I get an R1250GS.

    As for as the CrossTourer, I also disagree about that. It's a fine bike and the ones I've ridden handled great. I also chased one through some fast twisty roads in France and NO-ONE would describe that as being like a tank. He was going QUICK although I suspect he knew the roads. But tank? Nah.

    But everyone has their likes and dislikes. I hate fairings, think naked bikes are far preferable - as do others hence their rising popularity compared to super sports and other faired touring bikes that have been supplanted by ADVs - for good reason. I think for us, Honda's problem is they're concentrating on providing for different markets and 'worthy' mid range bikes is where that's at.

    Oh and I can make very good use of a Gear Position Indicator, particularly when hacking downhill into an Alpine hairpin and it is VERY handy to know exactly what gear you're in and how many left to go. Even though after more than 50 years messing with, riding and teaching about bikes and racing, I am more than capable of riding without, a GPI provides additional information I can use that enables me to ride better.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  4. BiKenG

    BiKenG New Member

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    Now that would be something. They did consider it, but once the V5 was outlawed in MotoGP, there was no chance of it ever seeing the light of day. A real shame as it's a great configuration. So much so that they copied the wide front bank and narrow rear bank layout for the VFR1200. Just dropped the middle front cylinder and left it a V4. :(

    However, they ARE working on a 1000cc V4. That's not to say they will definitely release it into the wild, but it is being developed. Let's hope it doesn't follow the V5 and disappear without trace.

    Even so, don't bank on it being a big VFR. It's likely to be a V4 engined FireBlade equivalent, i.e. full on sports bike with probably a special model aimed for use in SuperBike racing. I cannot guarantee we'll ever see it, but I rather think their recent return as a factory team into World SuperBike, currently with just the FireBlade is a precursor to a factory V4 effort in a year or so.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  5. VFR1200

    VFR1200 New Member

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    Firstly we are not comparing it to a Ducati. We are comaping it to a VFR. The last bike had a 22l fuel tank and 35l of side pods on each side. Even the CBR1100 had a bigger tank and bags. Instead they bring out the 1200 with a small tank and try to fix it by giving it .5l increase. So even Honda realized they messed up. Then you have side bags that you couldn't even put a full face helmet in. They didn't even cover the basics.

    Have you rode the 1200X... No... well I have and it handles like a tank. It does not go round corners and I had Pilot Road 4 fitted.. The high center of gravity is the problem... a huge problem..

    Fairing non-fairings.... I love my CB1000R... just a grin bike.

    I have ridden bikes since '86. Bikes didn't have gear indicators then and I don't really see the need. When you drive your car, do you look down to see what gear it is in or do you know. I always know what gear I am in.
     
  6. BiKenG

    BiKenG New Member

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    With respect, it's just the modern philosophy and nothing to do with any boards being made in China. It makes financial sense for the manufacturers to make stuff that gets thrown away rather than repaired and the general public has fallen for this hook, line and sinker.

    Automobiles have traditionally been different, requiring maintenance and repairs etc throughout their lifetime, but even that's changing. Nowadays you are not supposed to even understand how your new vehicle works, apart from the basic driving/riding of course. It's real hard trying to obtain actual technical information about the complex product that you have paid for. The manufacturers make it as hard as possible for the customer who is just supposed to pay the money and not ask questions.

    It's not a direction I like.
     
  7. BiKenG

    BiKenG New Member

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    Well I didn't actually say you were. I was though as I read the same journalist who complained bitterly about the 180 mile tank range of the VFR1200F and then dismissed the Ducati MultiStrada's 160 mile range as perfectly adequate.

    Depends what you're after. Not everyone wants huge luggage and most don't need a huge tank range. As I said, for the most part the VFR1200's reputation for small tank range was gained due to the inaccurate fuel level display. They fixed that in 2012 with the addition of an actual low fuel level sensor (rather than relying on the level sender signal) and reduced the size of some components to increase the fuel capacity. The tank however remained the same external size. In any case it was too late, the reputation, however unjust, stuck.

    Whatever the reason for its poor reputation, I agree, Honda did a lousy job of correcting it. Truth is they did NOTHING. With ample opportunity to provide a tank range the critics considered acceptable and improve the god awful styling they instead simply changed a few colours, ignored the rest and then quietly dropped it on the pretext it wouldn't pass Euro 4, while the CrossTourer (same engine) was miraculously Euro 4 compliant. A huge shame really as underneath it is a terrific bike. On a less than 2 mile winding test circuit, the VFR1200F recorded a lap 13 seconds faster than an RC30 and that is a HUGE margin. The VFR1200F is a lot better than most people realise.

    Er yup, as I actually stated, I have ridden several. In one case a back to back comparison with the R1200GS. Neither was a tank. Tall yes and if you find that off-putting, then not the bike for you. But both actually handled extremely well. It is simply not true to say the CrossTourer handles like a tank. Sorry. That is simply spreading a falsehood. I understand if you don't like it, but that doesn't make it a bad bike - nor a tank.

    Ah the old car comparison chestnut. As I said, I've ridden for more than a few years, many times on Europe's finest biking roads and also raced many years ago. Would I want a GPI on a race bike? Probably not as you use track side markers to time your gear changes and braking points etc. Things you cannot do on the road. Is it possible to ride well without a GPI, yes of course, as I also previously stated. But as I also said, it provides additional information that in many circumstances enables you to ride better. Have you never ridden a bike and tried to shift into top when you were already in top? Don't say no as I won't believe you. Amongst other benefits, a GPI enables you to avoid that particular mistake.

    Do I need indicators on a bike? No, I am perfectly capable of using hand signals. In fact that was how I had to learn as there were no such things as indicators. Can I kickstart a bike? Er, yes again. But do we nowadays want indicators and electric start? Sure as it's better to have them even though not actually necessary.

    I'm not trying to suggest everyone HAS to use a GPI, but don't knock them just because you don't see the benefits they can provide.
     
  8. OCLandspeeder

    OCLandspeeder New Member

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    GPI is a VERY nice feature. It's just information for sure. But it's useful information

    It's the same as having a coolant temperature gauge. Same as a clock. Or tachometer. I had a bike that didn't have a tachometer. I didn't really need the Tach since I can tell where the power band is and when it's time to shift. But after I put a tachometer on that bike, it sure was nice to know EXACTLY where the engine is spinning.

    Now there's undoubtedly riders who will also say they don't need a quick shifter either. Of course you don't. A motorcycle shifter is fast enough. But let me just say, having a quickshifter DOES add convenience AND advantage when you want to ride fast. And it is a bi-directional QS with rev-matching, SOOooo much better.

    Then there's fuel injection. You don't need no stinkin' fuel injection! Just give me a good pumper carb and I'm happy! LOL! I always know the right jetting and choke settings in any given altitude and ambient temperature.
     
  9. BiKenG

    BiKenG New Member

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    I'm with you there 100%. Well apart from a love of carbs, but I think you were joking about that?
     
  10. Diving Pete

    Diving Pete Insider

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    a few times I have ben driving at 165 & NOT been in top.... A GPI may have allowed me to go a bit quicker - lol
     
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  11. James Bond

    James Bond New Member

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    ????? Wow, talk about taking one line of a post and running in another direction with it. This forum didn't really need another "authoritarian" but looks like we got one. Carry on with the bullshit.
     
  12. Nelix

    Nelix New Member

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    Competition for your job?
     
  13. weevee

    weevee New Member

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    "On a less than 2 mile winding test circuit, the VFR1200F recorded a lap 13 seconds faster than an RC30 and that is a HUGE margin."

    Any more info, or a link to this report?

    ...do I take that as a no?

    There is video of the RC30 matched against another rather nippy two-wheeler though. 18mls of the TT course vs a (300hp & no shaft-drive) Kawasaki H2. James Hillier on-board:


     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  14. James Bond

    James Bond New Member

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    Weak, really weak.
     
  15. Nelix

    Nelix New Member

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    But factual to the nth degree.
     
  16. VFR1200

    VFR1200 New Member

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    You compared it to a Ducati by saying that no one complains about a Ducati gas range. Hence I don't ride a Ducati.

    As for the luggage, well a lot of riders do want the 35L luggage. All the other makes with a sport touring bike have 35l panniers. Givi, Shad aftermarket and others all offer the big bags as that is what customers want, even if it is just to put a helmet in when you go out. Vast majority of complaints that came out with the VFR1200 was range and luggage capacity of a scooter. The bike is lousy if you live in the US and Canada and can go 200 km or more without a gas station that will offer high end fuel. Some stations will only offer 87 octane and you will struggle to find a 93 when out and about so you really have to plan. Not all of us live in little tiny countries with a village every 30 miles with a gas station.

    1200X handles like a tank, end of. I owned one for two years and it is useless.

    Indicators are required by law. Gear indicators are not. I am a UK police trained Class 1 driver... no you do not need gear indicators, listen to your engine and who has time in the twisties or high volume traffic to check the gear you are in.
     
  17. OCLandspeeder

    OCLandspeeder New Member

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    I was kidding about the carb.

    My other bike actually has a pumper carb and it is every bit as good as a FI from my standpoint. I know it's not, but it feels like it is. Basically, all the knowledge that used to be in people's heads on how to tune a carb under different conditions, is now programmed into every FI system. And a FI system can change it's fueling curve based on that knowledge because it is told when conditions change from baseline. Now THAT is progress!

    I try not to downplay the significance of something just because I don't need it. For example, I never really needed traction control, and better yet, IMU controlled traction control. I'm confident of my hand throttle control. But let me just say it's much easier to ride a bike that has TC when road conditions deteriorate. And the more power you have the more significant TC becomes. Even a VFR800 will spin its rear wheels uncontrollably while leaned over if the road surface is slick enough and you ask for too much power.

    So just be open to new stuff. Don't put it down unless you've tried it. At the same time, don't refuse a bike simply because it has none of the new technology you feel you MUST have (the I'll-never-buy-a-bike-w/out TC/ABS crowd for example). Simple, down to Earth motorcycles are a lot of fun to ride.
     
  18. Gator

    Gator Insider

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    A friend that lives in Colorado has a DR 650. He can go through extreme elevation changes in the day. Rejetting is a pain in the ass to do while riding so he came up with a system. Made a door on the air box where everyone does the 3 hole mod anyways. At 5k' he jetted it so that the door (slid on a pivot) was more closed and when he was way up on a mountain at 13k' he just would open the door. Simple and worked. But FI would be so much easier. lol
     
  19. Gator

    Gator Insider

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    I have rode a friends Kawi Concours fully bagged. Its big but surprisingly nimble at speed and has all the goodies and a lot more power. He's modded it so its a bit faster than stock.
     
  20. James Bond

    James Bond New Member

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    You wouldn't know a fact if it bit you in the ass....and that's a fact.
     
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