Issue: Cold Start and Idle rough

It'll be a couple of days till I can check the timing chain marks. If I go ahead on the assumption that its not a vacuum leak, since creating a vacuum leak didn't cause any change, maybe the issue is that its just running really shitty, and since its running shitty its not able to pull the vacuum it needs. Ex, the first time I checked vacuum I had left the fuel injector unhooked on #2 and the vacuum was about 1.5 - 2 in less.

Next could be checking these pieces, which sensor would this be? The same thermo switch that runs the fan or a different one? Ive looked around and couldn't find another one.

Is there an easy way to test the fpr? New one looks to be about $40.

 

#13 is your water temperature sensor, in the rear of the front head.

http://www.hondapartshouse.com/oemparts/a/hon/5053f54ff870021c54be7a95/cylinder-head-fr

Check the manual as there should be a detailed procedure for testing. For the FPR, does it have a vacuum hose? If you remove the hose and it is full of fuel, the FPR is bad. That is one test but does not catch all problems. This symptom would indicate returning excess fuel to the intake.

 

Take a look at this spark plug, I'm guessing it's not a vacuum leak with this much fouling on the plug. I changed these last year and the old ones were fine.



I checked the vacuum hose off the FPR just to be sure but it was dry. Still might be worth swapping out I suppose. Going to pull the manifold back off this weekend and 3x check everything and test the ect. One of those test harnesses sure would make things easier.


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Are several plugs like that?

Have you removed the PCIII? If not do so. Have you critically analyzed the map? It should not be adjusting the fuel at idle.

 

I actually did that last night, didn't make a difference. It was previously running the mozie? Map as well as the PC map for the exhaust I'm running. Neither seemed to make a difference.

 

I suppose you must continue testing components. Coils?

 

Alright, so I went through and tested tons of stuff. Here is a list of the things I have done to this point and what I think I know.

At Idle (and low RPM) the bike is running extremely rich. Pulling plugs they are almost dripping wet with a crazy amount of carbon on them. The only way to start the bike is to idle it up so high that its actually higher than the wax valve will pull it. By doing this we are allowing more air in than its suppose to have, but that helps counter the amount of fuel. Recently, its been fowling the plugs after one start and I have to pull them to clean them. By this i mean, I start the bike let it idle until warm to help troubleshoot, then turn off. At that point I usually have to pull the plugs and clean them off before i can get it started again. Once the bike is warm, the idle adjuster really does nothing other than it helps it run better, but doesn't effect idle at all. Cold start the idle sits at about 900-800 and then once its warm it goes to between 1000-1200. Again, there is no way to adjust this, its just whatever it is it is.

What have I done:
Synced the idle valves best as possible, i really cant get the RPM controlled so they were syned at about 1100 RPM this last time, and they were at 5.5in Hg
Replaced all of the vacuum lines at the TB and ensured that the caps on the PAIR ports were not cracked
Replaced the wax valve
Had all the injectors cleaned and rebuilt
New Plugs
Ran tests per the book on the MAP, IAT, and ECT sensors, all checked out
Ensured power was getting to the coils, and ensured that the plugs had spark through the coils
There isn't fuel being pulled into the vacuum lined off of the FPR
When I have my powercommander hooked up I can see the throttle position, so that seems to be correct
I have unhooked and hooked the PC and its made no difference
Put resisters in the O2, and hooked them up and its made no difference
Checked resistance across all connectors on the coils, I cant find any sort of test for this so I dont know what if these are in or out of spec or if its even a valid test

Poles One Two Three Four
1-2 1143 1123 1145 1103
1-3 52000 47600 52000 51000
1-4 51000 46400 51000 50000

My only ideas left are FPR is somehow stuck open, or the ECU is fubar

 

Okay so the idle was jammed on high, probably due to the fueling problem.

It would be awesome if you replaced the FPR and the bike ran well again.

 

I broke down and called a dealer to see if they could just do diagnostics for me, but they are a month out. So that's out of the question. There is a thread over on discussion that is very similar to my situation and it was an injector for them. I'm wondering if maybe i too have a fucked up injector and when I had them cleaned rebuilt the shop was just worthless and didn't catch a broken injector. I looked down the throttle bodies and the #2 cylinder had a pool of fuel sitting on top of the vtec valve. Maybe i'll package up my injectors and ship them out to https://precisionautoinjectors.com/ and have them rechecked as well as grabbing a new FPR.

 

Oh wow that is a total bummer. You expect those parts were good because you already did due diligence with them. Ouch.

 

Welp, I just went for a Hail Mary, called a seller on ebay and spoke to him about a full throttle body assembly with injectors and FRP off of an 04 (i understand the FPR was upgraded in 03). He said it was off a running bike and all parts were in working condition. Picked it up, going to swap the entire assembly over to mine and see if the problem persists. I will likely freshen it up post test, but we should see some change if the issue is related to anything in that contraption.

 

Got the new manifold installed with the new injectors and fpr, still having what seems to be the same issues. It was suppose to have come from a running bike. I can be 100% sure something isn't wrong with its parts but odds are it's not something in that. I'm out of ideas.


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Ran more tests over yesterday,

Something that i figured out, and was repeatable was that when the bike is at between 105-110deg it runs like a fucking top. I can adjust idle and throttle response is great. Below or above that and it runs like piss. Im saying temp based on the readout on the dash. Im assuming the ECT sensor effects both the fuel and the temp reading at the dash. Since it works on the dash, it shouldn't be an issue with the sensor. If im wrong and the temp on the dash comes from some other sensor, then that may be my issue.


I also found out that im not getting enough power to my battery. At idle it was pushing about 12.2v and at 5k rpm it was pushing 12.5v. So obviously there is an issue with the charging system, stator passed the ohm test, but at 5000rpm it was pushing 70v. Looking online ive seen from 50v-90v as being min, so im not really sure what it needs. I looked through the service manual but couldn't find a reading they expect.

Anyone got any advice on those two things?

Update: Just talked to someone at Rick's and they said that at 5000rpm it should be between 50-80v which to me seems like a really wide range. I pulled up an old service manual from 02 (I have the updated one from like 07) and it actually states that at 5000rpm it should be at 0.47kW. I'll have to re-check with that measurement when I get home.

Ive got a big trip this weekend to kentucky, getting really last minute here.

 

Good on you for sticking with this one.

Regarding the voltages, the stator sounds like it is pumping out a reasonable voltage, but what you are seeing at the battery is woeful and I doubt you'll be getting much charge there, which would point to the regulator/rectifier as a culprit. Have you checked the connector between the stator and regulator, should be 3 yellow wires? These get corroded then overheat then melt sometimes.

Interesting that your bike runs really well around 110F, but that is a really, really cold running temp. It should sit around 80C or 176F, which is around where the thermostat opens. I doubt that even with a jammed thermostat the bike could stay at this temperature unless you were running in polar conditions.

Maybe your temperature sending unit or its connections are shot, and the ECU thinks it is much colder than it really is and so runs rich? Might be worth doing electrical checks on this circuit if you haven't already done so.

 

We checked it last week at the ECM and cold (68 deg f) it had the correct ohm reading per the manual. What I didn't do at the time was check the temp as it raises. I just went through the wiring diagram and it shows that while the ECT goes to both the ECM and the gauges, they are different wires. So to me this means that even if the gauges shows temp correct (seems to) that there could be a short or something in the wiring on the way to the ECU. Im going to try to find the gauge connection and compare the ohm reading on each to see if they are different. I plan to spend more time checking both the ECT circuit (also shares a connection with the MAP and o2 sensors), and the reg/rec circuit. I grabbed a Rick's Reg/Rec and a Procom stator, just doing them both while im in here. You mention the connection between the two, the PO has actually replaced the original reg/rec in the past (the colors changed on the wiring thats how i can tell), and they hard wired the two together. The only way I was able to get readings was to cut them apart. So, im wondering if something is off with the stator and its frying reg/recs or maybe there is something else going on that's frying them. Just read about a leak down test to try and find a short, haven't don't that yet so going to try that tonight as well.

The 110 deg f thing is really weird. Only lasts for a minute or two, but its nice while its there

 

More testing,

went through a leak down test, and according to the manual if you have over 1.5 ohm then you have a short. Well, I had over 2ohm so I started chasing wires, ended up that the clock itself pulls over 1.5 ohm. Without the clock it was only pulling 0.5ohm, so im going with no a short. But, if someone has some more electrical knowledge and can chime in that would be awesome. Might create a new thread to get some visibility on that.

Checked the ECT again, and it is actually off about 0.1-0.2 ohm of what the manual calls spec (which I dont trust a ton anymore). I cant see this causing an issue as per my calculations that would put it about 10-15 deg f off. Not enough to make the engine think its way off, the ohms did drop as the temp went up so everything seemed to work correctly.

Tested the stator at all three connections and one of the tests was quite a bit higher than the other two. So im going with a dying stator and a blown reg/rec however with that all unhooked and the bike running off of a battery charger the over fueling is still happening. They are bad, but not the issue I am chasing.

I am defeated. Sensors all pass inspection, connections seems fine ive pulled them all apart checked for melting and corrosion, fueling system has been checked, cleaned, and replaced, vacuum leaks have been checked, anything that could be suspect has been removed (emissions, PAIR, flapper, o2 sensors bypassed), new plugs, checked spark, new clean fuel...

 

If this worked fine for you previously, then it would not be the valves out of adjustment. It has to be something in fuel or spark.

If it was always like this, then I wonder if there is a valve problem. The cam is off, retarded, and not allowing fuel to burn.

Where are you physically? You should put a call out to other members. Maybe someone is near you and for a six pack (this problem is more than 1 beer) maybe you can get some assistance.

By the way, please put your bike year and your location in your profile. That is helpful to the other members.

 

Its always not been right, but its gotten worse since Ive had it (I feel). If timing was off a tooth, then i would expect it to run like shit at all RPM ranges, not just at the really low rpm. I can pull the valve covers off and check, suppose I can do my best at checking the non v-tec valves as well to make sure something doesn't seem crazy out of wack.

 

WOW! That's a lot of fuel on that plug ... I'd get the injectors checked again. I know you said you had them cleaned and balanced, but with that much fuel in the cylinder it almost looks like one of them is sticking open or leaking.

 

So, I tonight I checked the cams and they were correct, and I checked the clearances on the non vtec valves. Three of the exhaust valves were .02mm tight out of spec (0.30mm spec is 0.32-0.37). I don't really know what I'm doing so that they may be even closer to that. The intake valves seemed to be on. I sure don't think that's enough to raise a red flag for my issues.

While in there I peaked down and looked at the valves. Long ago on the original serviced injectors there was some fuel on the #2 vtec intake valve. Tonight on the Ebay guessing game injectors there was a tiny bit of fuel on the #3 intake vtec injector. I still haven't heard of this could be normal or not. May just be a symptom too.


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