New 5th/6th/8th gen performance header now in production in USA

Discussion in 'Anything Goes' started by sfdownhill, Dec 29, 2018.

  1. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    A pre-production prototype header assembly with specifications nearly identical to the Two Brothers Racing [TBR] 5th gen VFR 800 header is now being constructed in southern California.


    This is a new thread duplicating posts on the VFRW 'Help fund the VFR header' thread and the VFRD '5th & 6th VFR 800 Header build' thread.

    The objective of this new thread is to give the project described below an opportunity to stand on its own two legs. There is a metric ton of valuable data and opinion on the old threads, so if you're new to VFR headers and curious about the gestation of this project, don't deny yourself the pleasure of reviewing them.


    PART 1 OF NEW HEADER THREAD [due to VFRW site machinery, part 2 is in following post]

    Here is photographic evidence of the work in progress. This is a photo of the jig that has been fabricated in order to get the proper layout of the performance headers. Photos taken 12/26/2018:
    [​IMG][​IMG]


    *Acknowledgements:

    From the start of this project, we knew we'd need help, and so sought assistance from some very well respected, long time VFRW and VFRD members.

    Special thanks to VFRW/VFRD member Cornercarver for the generous and trusting loan of his prized, irreplaceable [Until now!] set of original TBR headers.

    We also would like to thank VFRW/VFRD member RVFR for his support of this effort through contributions from the 2017 gofundme header fund.

    Contributing members - all massively experienced and extremely helpful - include but are not limited to: Sebspeed, Cornercarver, TimmytheCop, MiniCarver, BusyLittleShop, BuzznerSuntrusts, RVFR, Mohawk, Mello Dude, CandyRedRC46, Stray, keef, voided76, and 3dcycle. Our sincere thanks to all these individuals and others for their wise counsel. Without you, we could neither be getting a prototype built, nor could we have established a path to a production version of this performance header.


    *General information / major bullet points:

    [1] The production version of the performance header assembly described here will be hand built in southern California and cost $760.00 plus shipping from the manufacturer. California residents need to add 7.75% state sales tax.

    [2] The header will fit 5th and 6th gen VFR800s. [8th gen owners, see Note a in part 2 in following post]

    [3] The header will go into production when orders for 15 units are received with a $200 deposit per unit.

    [4] The prototype header is scheduled to be completed by 1/11/2019.

    [5] A baseline dyno run of a VFR fitted with 98/99 headers and same day/same dyno full tune of the same VFR with prototype header installed is scheduled for the week of 1/14/2019. [Dyno testing methodology is detailed under 'Dyno testing procedure']

    [6] The list below of deposits received will be kept updated, and we will be adding a second list of individuals interested in seeing the dyno results before placing a deposit.

    If you are interested, PM us and let us know the following:
    a] which gen VFR [5th, 6th, or 8th] you would like a header for
    b] which fueling management system you use or intend to use
    c] which slipon muffler/midpipe you have or will use
    d] if you intend to have your exhaust system dyno tuned
    e] if more than one unit, how many headers you are interested in purchasing
    f] if you are placing a deposit


    *A LIST - 5th gen/6th gen header orders with deposits received:
    -Duc2V4 5th gen Rapid Bike TBR slipon yes dyno 1 5/6th
    -sfdownhill 5th gen PC3 [maybe Techlusion] Full system by Wade yes dyno 1 5/6th
    -Hammerdrill 6th gen PCV Gutted OEM [maybe TBR] yes dyno 1 5/6th
    -VFR7503 6th gen PC3 has TBR and Leo Vince maybe dyno 1 5/6th
    -WackenSS 5th gen PC3 [RB in future]* Leo Vince yes dyno 1 5/6th
    -jim v 6th gen PC3 [maybe RB in future]* Micron yes dyno 1 5/6th [maybe full system]
    -MadScientist 5th gen PCV w autotune Micron low, MIG autotune/maybe dyno 1 5/6th
    -bornes 6th gen Rapid Bike SC Project CR-T yes dyno 1 5/6th
    -Airisom 5th gen PC3 or PCV Delkevic yes dyno 1 5/6th
    -CornerCarver 5th gen PC2 or better Wolf [sweet!] yes dyno 3 5/6th
    5 eng in 6 chassis PCV Staintune yes dyno
    6th gen Rapid Bike OEM
    -3dcycle 6th gen 1 5/6th
    -Sebspeed 5th gen 1 5/6th
    -Mbrane 5th gen PC [which PC TBD] miscellaneous yes dyno 1 5/6th
    -wholepailofwater 5th gen OEM/TBD Staintune 1 5/6th
    -interceptor69 5th gen PC3 Vance & Hinea no dyno 1 5/6th


    *B LIST - parties interested in purchasing a 5th/6th gen and/or 8th gen header who prefer to wait before placing a deposit:
    -Samuelx 8th gen RB or PCV current Delk, Yosh, OEM maybe dyno 1 8th
    -Voided76 8th gen Rapid Bike Assorted slipons 1 8th
    -Stray 8th gen header front rad 5th 1 8th
    -HighSideNZ 8th gen header 6 chassis /825cc 5eng/front rad Rapid Bike Leo Vince 1 8th
    -EX-XX 5th gen PC2 Custom midpipe/slipon yes dyno 1 5/6th
    -boOZZIE 6th gen Rapid Bike Micron yes dyno 1 5/6th
    -RC51Nick 6th gen Rapid Bike/autotune Staintune autotune 1 5/6th
    -carlgustav 6th gen Rapid Bike M4 no dyno 1 5/6th
    -CornerCarver 8th gen header front rad 5 eng in 6 chassis PCV Staintune yes dyno 2 8th
    8th gen header front rad Torocharged 6 gen Rapid Bike Staintune searching for a worthy dyno
    -Sebspeed 8th gen 1 8th
    -MooseMoose 5th gen Rapid Bike/MyBikeTunig Delkevic 1 5/6th
    -Tirso 5th gen PC3/PCV w auto Staintune no dyno 1 5/6th
    -adkfinn 5th gen PC3 Black Widow yes dyno 1 5/6th
    -flya750 1 8th
    -Funkatron 5th gen PC3 TBR maybe dyno 1 5/6th



    *Background:

    Over the past year, VFRW member OOTV and I have made an exhaustive [ouch!] search for a manufacturer/fabricator qualified and willing to produce a reasonably-priced, high quality "replica" of the Two Brothers Racing 5th gen header assembly. The TBR is the accepted standard in production VFR performance exhaust systems. After unproductive efforts with several fabricators, in August of this year we were referred to and contacted a gentleman named Wade, founder of an established southern California exhaust manufacturing firm. Wade expressed interest in taking on this project. Communications about and development of this project have continued with Wade since August and resulted in the construction of the fixture pictured above, along with a pre-production prototype header, a dyno testing schedule, and a commitment to build a production run of 15 units.


    END OF PART 1 OF POST

    PART 2 WITH WADE'S CREDENTIALS, NOTES, AND PHOTOS IN NEXT POST
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  2. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    PART 2 OF NEW 5th/6th/8th GEN HEADER THREAD - PART 1 IN PREVIOUS POST


    *Dyno testing procedure:

    Testing will consist of a baseline dyno run of a 5th gen VFR with OEM 98/99 headers installed [We are on the verge of using our 6th gen to test the prototype instead of our 5th gen - see Note b in part 2 in following post]. After the baseline run, the test VFR's 98/99 headers will be removed and replaced with the prototype performance header assembly. On the same day as the baseline run, a full dyno tune will be performed on the subject VFR with performance header installed. The dyno tune will be performed on the same dyno by the same dyno technician, with the same air filter, same fuel management system, and same midpipe/muffler.
    [Test bike described in 'Test bike' section]


    *Some dimensions, features, and specifications of the header will be taken from the TBR.
    The new header will incorporate the following specifications from the original TBR header design:
    -header construction will be from 18 gauge 304 stainless steel tubing, [0.049"/1.24mm wall thickness]
    -header will have 38mm od primary tubes [1.5" od]
    -header will have 41.5mm od secondary tubes [1 5/8" od]
    -header will have 51mm od collector tubing [2" od]
    -header's rear primary tube junctions will be fastened by spring tension fittings
    -header's left front and left rear primary tubes will merge
    -header's right front and right rear primary tubes will merge
    -header will have no crossover of front or rear primary tubes
    -header's collector exit tube will have a 51mm od [See Note c below]
    -header's tubing will be mandrel bent


    *Some specifications will be changed from original TBR header design.
    To align with the VFR community's objectives and improve durability, the header will incorporate the following changes to the original TBR header design:
    -header's collector exit pipe will be modified to match position and angle of OEM collector exit pipe
    -midpipe/muffler/clamp to be supplied by customer [See Note c below]
    -midpipe/muffler to be fastened to header collector exit pipe by clamp
    [Clamp not supplied with header]
    -header will have two O2 sensor bosses at 2000-2009 OEM header's O2 sensor locations: one O2 sensor boss on secondary tube after left front/left rear primary merge, one O2 sensor boss on secondary tube after right front/right rear primary merge
    -right rear primary tube of all headers will be mandrel bent to provide 1/16" clearance from rear head cam chain tensioner when installed on 6th gen VFRs
    -header's stud nut tension flanges will be 1/4" thick stainless steel [See Note d below]
    -header's collars at head end of primary tubes will be reinforced and length adjusted for 1/4" head stud fixing flanges
    -header's internal flow surfaces at head end collar joints of primary tubes will be finished smooth/flush [See Note e below]


    *Wade's credentials:
    Wade designed and built exhausts for Kerker Exhaust Systems from 1980-1988. Since founding his own exhaust fabrication business in 1989, he has produced custom, prototype, and production exhaust systems and components for numerous individuals and manufacturers, including Two Brothers Racing. He builds a production aftermarket full exhaust system for a current non-Honda V4-powered motorcycle. Here are two of his current projects. Photos taken 12/27/2018 and 12/28/2018 :
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]


    *Test bike:


    For initial testing of prototype performance header, we will use this motorcycle
    [We may choose to use our 6th gen for prototype testing instead of our 5th gen - see Note b below]:
    2001 California 5th gen with 60,000 miles
    K&N big mouth air filter [See Note f below]
    PC III USB, map dyno tuned in 2013 with OEM California ECU, no O2 sensors installed
    Dynojet O2 sensor resistor terminations installed on OEM O2 sensor leads
    OEM 49 state ECU now installed, PC III not retuned, no O2 sensors installed
    OEM 98/99 VFR headers ceramic coated with Staintune high mount slipon.
    Maintenance performed before dyno testing:
    New air filter, new Denso iridium IUH27#4 plugs, valve clearance adjustment, injectors professionally calibrated, starter valves synched, new thermostat, new silicon coolant hoses, new Engine Ice coolant, oil and filter changed w Mobil 1 0w-30 and Purolator PBL14610 filter



    *Notes:

    Note a - an 8th gen version of the performance header with 'widely spaced' front primaries is in the works for a production run to follow the initial production run of 5th/6th gen headers.

    Note b - If there is significantly greater interest in proving the prototype header on a 6th gen, we have a 6th gen standing by and can use it for the dyno baseline run and test/tuning instead of the 5th gen. For 6th gen test/tuning, we will use the same dyno testing procedure at the same test/tune facility as described for the initial 5th gen test/tune. The 6th gen available for testing currently has ceramic coated 98/99 headers installed with gutted OEM mufflers and a PCV. We would obtain open flowing aftermarket slipon mufflers to optimize testing of the prototype header.

    Note c - Wade recommends keeping the the 51mm od collector exit pipe instead of reducing it to the OEM exit pipe's 49mm od for the following reasons:
    1 - it is probable that reducing the collector diameter will have a [small] negative effect on top end performance
    2 - Wade uses premanufactured tubing merges of very high quality. Reducing the collector diameter would mean that the collector merge exit diameter would be too large for the 49mm od exit pipe, and the labor required to adapt the two components would raise the cost.
    3 - purchasers of a replica header who want to use aftermarket slipons can have the collector end of their slipon expanded to fit the 51mm od exit pipe by any competent exhaust/muffler shop. Two Brothers slipons and OEM mufflers will require exhaust wrap to function as a gasket in place of the OEM 'donut' gasket.
    4 - the collector joint of all slipon midpipes we could think of except TBR are 2" od and slotted at the clamping end. Wade was concerned that a 2" od midpipe that has been slotted to clamp onto the OEM collector pipe is likely to tear at the base of the slots when expanded.
    IMPORTANT - when having a slipon's midpipe expanded to fit this performance header, make certain the muffler shop expands it gradually in two or more small steps. Wade recommends drilling a relief hole at the muffler side ends of the midpipe's slots to distribute stress and reduce the possibility of tearing. Wade tested the viability of expanded slotted 304 stainless steel 18 gauge 2" od tubing by slotting a piece of 2" tubing while I was at his facility. He then expanded the slotted end of the tube in two steps to fit over the 51mm od collector exit pipe with no tearing at the slots.

    Note d - Here is Wade's 1/4" thick stainless steel head stud nut tension flange:
    small work 7.jpg

    Here is the original TBR head stud nut tension flange [Note that flange is bent from tension]:
    small work 8.jpg


    Note e - Original TBR has rough, unfinished joints in the internal flow surfaces at head end collars of primary tubes

    Note f - See RVFR's June 8 2017 post on page 5 of vfrd thread '5th & 6th VFR 800 header build' for photos of standard vs big mouth K&N air filters. Both filters have K&N part number HA-8098

    Note g - Significant improvement can be achieved over OEM gas flow through the exhaust port into the header primaries by using crush gaskets that do not intrude into the gas flow path when installed. The id of OEM VFR crush gaskets reduces to around 30.41mm when installed with header stud nuts torqued to spec. The exhaust port id is 32.45mm - that's a 2mm reduction in gas flow passage diameter. To solve this, we will be confirming Mohawk's recommendation to use GSXR750 crush gaskets between the performance header primaries and the VFR's head.

    Note h - Wade has expressed a modest willingness to build complete exhaust systems in high or low mount configurations for 5th gen VFRs. These full systems would have the same specs as the full systems that were the only configuration in which TBR sold the VFR headers - the TBR headers were only available with a matching midpipe and muffler/canister. Mufflers built by Wade would be available in metal or carbon fiber. I neglected to ask Wade which metals he uses for muffler/canisters or what a full system would cost, but I will ask him to specify materials and pricing. I have not yet introduced the possibility of Wade building a 6th gen full system, but I will ask him if he'd consider it.

    END OF PART 2 OF 2 - That's all, folks
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
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  3. Samuel

    Samuel Member

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    Thanks for the heads up!

    Where in So Cal - is there a reason why the name of the shop is not listed/mentioned? I'm assuming it's in Orange or San Diego county?

    Re: Note a - Can an 8th gen order be included in the initial group order or does he require an additional 15 orders solely for 8th gens?

    Do the two O2 sensor locations from the 6th gen also work properly for the 8th gen?

    Also just curious, will the exhaust system differ based upon what kind of fuel management, what kind of muffler, or whether or not dyno tuning will be performed?
     
  4. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    Good questions, Samuel.

    1 - We have chosen not to list the fabricator’s website or exact location because, in the past, several potential manufacturers and distributors of headers have been driven away when multiple enthusiastic VFR owners - with only the best of intentions - went around the member already in contact with the supplier, directly calling and emailing the supplier into a frustrated state of disinterest.

    2 - On Note a, send a PM expressing interest in a header for your 8th and please include answers to our informal survey. We’ll put you on list B, which consists of individuals interested in purchasing a header, but who choose not to place a deposit yet. We have discussed with Wade the differences between 5th/6th gen headers and those for 8th gen. Because the headers will be constructed on an assembly line in jigs/fixtures that facilitate a specific confguration, at this time each production run of 15 units will consistent of a single configuration.

    That being said, there is a small possibility of mixing 5th/6th with 8th gen headers in the second production run. Success with the first production run will demonstrate potential value in developing modular front primaries in order to facilitate simultaneous production of 5th/6th and 8th gen headers. At this time, maintaining efficiency in energy expended is paramount. We are maintaining efficiency by focusing energies only on the two tasks at hand: 1) building and testing the prototype, and 2) fabricating 15 identical replicas of a known entity.

    Getting Wade to buy in to the viability of this project was tough. The more we demonstrated a fully developed objective with no complicating variables, the more willing he became to participate. As a result, it was necessary to distill the first production run to a single configuration that closely matches the sample we have on hand.

    3 - Research indicates that the 8th gen only has one O2 sensor. We will determine where on an 8th gen new performance header the bung for an O2 sensor should be placed to optimize function, then locate it there.

    4 - Nope, in the first production run, each 5th/6th gen header will be exactly the same. Our informal survey’s purpose is to identify the different ways individuals will be implementing the new exhaust systems so we can adapt to trends wherever beneficial.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  5. Viffer J

    Viffer J New Member

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  6. GreginDenver

    GreginDenver New Member

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    Definitely interested in this (and I have two VFRs), keep the information coming.
     
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  7. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    Ta da... ;) whats that they say? Like good wine, it takes time for anything great to happen.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
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  8. Samuel

    Samuel Member

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    Thanks for the added info SFD! Will PM you shortly...

    Do we have any idea of time frame? 3 months, 6 months, 9-12? I have the cash now but I'm also looking at maybe getting an electric skateboard... lol If it's gonna take some time, I could probably get a board and then save up again in time for the header (or work a couple of spots of overtime...)
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  9. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    Just a wondering question. Was Wade using stock size tubing to make sure there wasn't going to be an issue lining up the header into the exhaust ports? then expand it a bit later . That's what the folks did at Lektec with their version. As I've noted before one of the hic ups with the Two Bro was the 38mm tubing is taking the install to anther WTF moment as its a very tight fit. then there's the question of the copper gaskets. Stock ones really do not work if the tubing is 38mm as the stock port is made for 32mm gaskets. I've read the ones made for the GSXR750 could work, I also know some guys with the two Bros said screw it and used no copper gaskets. Just throwing it out there. ;)
     
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  10. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    Hi RVFR - For primaries, secondaries, and the collector, Wade is using tubing that matches the TBR dimensions, which turn out to be of 3 standard tubing sizes.

    He is fabricating the collars that will be welded onto head end of the primaries to fit all the way to the bottom of the sleeve that protrudes from the head and line up with the exhaust port there. These sleeves [part of the head casting] are 41.10mm id closest to the head, and they widen to 42.43mm at their ends, farthest from the head. You know from your TBR that collars on the primaries are much slimmer than the OEM headers' collars - they have to be because of the increased primary tubing diameter fo the TBR. This is another reason he's using the thicker-than-OEM 1/4" thick head nut tension flanges; they offer more stout support at the primaries' collars.

    For crush gaskets, we've ordered a few for the GSXR750 [2001-2018 GSXR750's all use the same Suzuki part number - 14181-46E10]. This is the part that worked for Mohawk on his TBR. On a test engine we have off the bike, we will crush oneGSXR750 gasket by torquing it to spec under a 98/99 OEM rear primary. We'll test a second washer under a 2000-2009 rear primary, and a third under a TBR rear primary. Then we'll measure each flattened-out washer's id and see they'll stay out of the gas flow path, or if we need to find/fabricate another gasket, like the gasket of 0.030" red brass solution you machined.

    Because it worked for HigSideNZ and CandyRedRC46, we were considering a no-gasket fitment to the head, but you pointed out that joining the two dissimilar metals - stainless headers, aluminum head - and adding heat might be asking for trouble [Though neither HighSideNZ nor CandyRedRC46 have reported any problems]
     
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  11. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    OOTV and I are looking for a set of used 6th gen performance slip-on midpipe/mufflers to purchase, borrow, or have donated for use dyno test/tuning the prototype new VFR800 performance header. Our test 6th gen has gutted OEM mid pipe/mufflers, and those won't flow enough exhaust gas to take best advantage of the new header.

    A cosmetically damaged 6th gen slip-on would be great if fully functional. Any brand or model that is open flowing is fine; Two Brother Racing, Delkevic, Micron, Leo Vince, Akrapovic, Scorpion, GPR, Staintune, etc

    We would prefer to accept a generous donation or loan and will pick up in southern California or pay for shipping [pay shipping both ways if the slipon is a loan], but we are willing to purchase.

    WE ARE NOT PICKY. Thanks for considering this.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
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  12. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    There are a few updates, but first for the important stuff...pipe porn sent yesterday!

    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]



    The GSXR750 crush gaskets arrived yesterday, and I had a chance to measure and install/crush them today.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    I couldn't get the gaskets to fit into the exhaust mounting sleeve in the head, even after judiciously Dremeling at opposite sides to get them past the header stud bosses, then putting a little chamfer on one edge, hoping it would start into the sleeve - no joy.

    Mohawk confirmed that these are not the optimum gaskets - we are looking for round cross section gaskets similar to the OEM gaskets, but 42mm od and 33mm or 34mm id. The search is on - I found some from UK and some from China.

    [​IMG]

    I was going to try using the force of torquing the header flange nuts to squeeze the gaskets into place before crushing them, but I coudn't get a nut started onto the threads.

    [​IMG]



    Next topic - on the sister site, Sebspeed, boOZZIE, and zupatun discussed passivation - chemical treatment of newly welded stainless steel exhausts. After passivation, the chromium oxide surface layer that inhibits corrosion of stainless reforms when exposed to air...YAY! Finally a component of this project that is FREE! I called a local metal finishing firm and spoke with their estimator George, who was very helpful. They use a citric acid dip to passivate metal structures. The citric acid process they use exceeds milspec, and they use it for medical stainless steel structures and many other products. I asked George if they use citric acid because it's illegal to use nitric acid/hyrofluoric acid in California, and he said no, it's not a state or regulatory issue. They get best results from it, exceeding specification and certification requirements. George said that the size of our header assembly requires a double-dip [His term, not mine, but it does make a chemical bath sound like more fun]. So treating a single header assembly would cost $110. They would consider a lower per-unit cost if greater quantities were processed, and would quote 'batch pricing' after passivating the first header.



    I spoke with Wade yesterday, and we covered several checklist items:

    1 - He doesn't do polishing or finishing of his products, nor does he send his products out to be passivated.

    2 - He will make a midpipe to fit the new headers to an existing slipon for $50. I neglected to ask if he'd need the slipon to be shipped to him, but I'll ask him next time we talk. We are having a full system made for the 5th gen that will be used for dyno testing, and Wade will make a $50 midpipe to fit from the 98/99 headers currently on the bike to the muffler he will build, so we can do the baseline run with the same muffler that will be used for the tune.

    3 - on the topic of coloring stainless exhaust systems black or other colors, like ceramic coating [As mentioned in an earlier post, ceramic coating retains too much heat which damages stainless steel], he is not familiar with any coloring processes that work with stainless steel exhausts. He recommended calling CeraKote - the big dog in the manufacturing of ceramic coating products.

    4 - Regarding adding four M18 O2 sensor bungs - one in each primary - to allow each cylinder to be tuned independently; in his opinion, the intrusion of four bungs into the primaries' gas flow path would hurt performance more than it would help improve a dyno or auto tune.

    5 - The connection of header collector to midpipe in full systems and on midpipes he builds will be by clamp. He has a supplier of T-bolt clamps that he describes as 'bitchin'.
    [I'm not sure if this means the T-bolt supplier is a hot woman, or the clamps are of high quality]

    6 - For 6th geners who will be using their existing slipons: Wade compared the location of the center stand stop [CSS] on OEM 6th gen headers at his shop to the TBR. On the 6th gens, the CSS extends a significant distance out from the back from the catalytic converter. It would have to extend even further back from the TBR, whose collector is further forward than the OEM cat. He doesn't think welding a CSS onto the new headers will be structurally sound. He suggested clamping a CSS onto the midpipes of existing 6th gen slipons [OOTV uses this method for his 6th gen with 98/99 headers and TBR slipons]. Wade thinks there might be a possibility of attaching a CSS to some point on the cush bracket or another structure 'down there' - we will check that possibility when he gets his hands on the fitment bike.
     
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  13. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    Can a 5th gen be made to run well with the Power Commander V?



    OOTV and I would like to reemphasize our request for examples of or hearsay about any 5th gens or 5th gen power plants running happily and performing well with a Power Commander V. We will have a Power Commander IIIUSB and a Power Commander V on hand for the dyno testing of the prototype header, but will only use one or the other for all baseline runs and test/tuning. At this time, all our research indicates that the PCV causes problems with basic rideability on the 5th gen. Though the PCV offers finer tuning across more parameters, it would be counterproductive to waste $125/hr dyno time getting the bike to run right.



    Thanks for any input.
     
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  14. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    LOL, I'm not laughing at you, just seeing the matter with the crush washer dilemma has me going doh!! Sorry, welcome to my world. as far as the extra in giving the headers a bath, IMO I'm not so sure it's necessary, Gabe and I talked about this and came to the conclusion it's not worth the time being it's stainless in the first place. just make sure it's good and clean prior to heating it up. Sorta on topic when I media blasted the TB header, I went after the process wondered if I screwed up, as of coarse it put a different finish to it. other than making sure it was clean, after few miles after the install told me all is good. just throwing it out there, you'll know for sure during the trial runs if it should be in the to dos.. just saying. As far as PC goes, yea I'd stick with a version 3 for 5th gens, version 5 for 6th and newer, just my 2 cents worth. ;) looking good here.
     
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  15. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    Thanks RVFR - your experience with getting the TBR prepped and installed is a big part of our playbook. I'm glad your TBR are holding up so well, now almost two years later. I've got some round cross section 42mm od/34mm id crush gaskets on the way from the UK., and messages out to a few other vendors as a backup plan. VFRD member gig showed his brilliantly simple solution: Dremel cut a cross section of a too-large gasket to get it to fit perfectly into the port sleeve on the head. As the buddhist monks are fond of saying, 'We shall see'
     
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  16. Doug7200

    Doug7200 New Member

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    If needed, I have a set of 6th Gen VFR SS headers in my garage. I live in SoCal near LAX if they are need for comparison.

    Great idea, follow through and product!

    Thanks
     
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  17. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    Hey Doug - thank you very much for your offer! We are all set on headers with 98/99, 00/01, and 6th gen. The missing piece of the puzzle was an open flowing performance slipon/muffler assembly for dyno testing the new header on a 6th gen.

    Of course it will be fantastic if one of the first recipients of a 5/6th gen exhausts heads straight to the dyno with their 6th gen and we all get to learn their results...hint, hint.
     
  18. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    Here it is...a real header made of real molecules.

    There are a few extra welds - especially in the primaries - because this is a hand built prototype. The welds along the primaries, secondaries, and collector will not be present in the production headers because the tubing bender will be setting up a mandrel to bend all the tubing to Wade's specifications, and he won't have to weld shorter sections together as he did on the prototype.

    We'll be heading over to pick up the prototype tomorrow afternoon or next Wednesday. We've got the exhaust off of an innocent donor 5th gen and will take the bike to Wade's shop to confirm fitment or make adjustments on site. It was a little nerve wracking that he built straight from the TBR without confirming fitment, but if he's not worried about it, we're not worried about it.
    upload_2019-1-17_10-22-9.jpeg
    upload_2019-1-17_10-29-41.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
  19. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    May I please tap into the collective knowledge base about O2 sensor bung placement?



    Jozef, the dyno tech/engine builder/tuner at Attack Performance, recommends an O2 sensor in each primary 7 inches from the port for optimum tuning. Jozef has Bosch 4.9 wideband sensors that he installs to facilitate his tuning. The O2 sensors will be removed and the bungs plugged after the dyno tuning process is completed.


    Wade - the man building the headers - does not like the idea of an O2 sensor protruding into each of the four primaries, and strongly recommends against installing them. He does find it acceptable to install a sensor in each primary if the bung height is set such that the sensor's business end does not extend into the gas flow path in the primary. Whether we enable Jozef to tune each cylinder individually, or tune the fueling of all four cylinders together, we will have him set up the PCV's gear sensing and optimize fueling for each gear.


    In pursuit of optimized tuning for the new header, I seek wise counsel from those who have experimented with O2 sensors for tuning via autotune, dyno, or laptop-strapped-to-bike:

    [1] Would O2 sensors in all four primaries interrupt the exhaust flow enough to be detrimental?


    [2] Would Jozef's Bosch 4.9 wideband sensors function correctly if their bungs were placed at a height such that the sensor tips did not extend in to the gas flow?


    [3] Would the advantages of Jozef being able to tune each cylinder's fueling individually outweigh the potential penalty brought by the O2 sensors' position in the primaries?


    [4] On a Bosch 4.9 wideband O2 sensor, what is the measured distance from its deepest thread point [where it seats against the bung] to the end tip of its sensor?


    [5] Should I cease and desist attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist and have Jozef shove a single sniffer down the tailpipe, then tune a single map for all four cylinders combined?



    Thanks for kicking in suggestions
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
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  20. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    Bingo! Yippie... we have a winner. Now lets see how it fits ;) Looking very good. I'd like to think Candy could have some input here as I believe he's done the 4 sensor thing. Willing to bet as we looked into this as an option and placement, there ain't a lot of room. 2 would be more than good enough IMO for what it's worth. ;)
     
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