On Air Filters

Discussion in 'General VFR Discussions' started by ksoholm, Mar 28, 2017.

  1. ksoholm

    ksoholm New Member

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    Lads,

    Having been around this motorsickle/fast car racket for a while, and having researched whether aftermarket filters are better than stock for both motorcycles and cars several times over the last 25 years, I've arrived at the conclusion--again--regarding modern vehicles that stock, high-quality, filters are best. They were designed to perform to very high levels by top engineers, who didn't unnecessarily leave HPs behind in something as simple as a filter. And, they took great care to ensure the filters screened anything out that would cause harm. I've heard too many reports over time of engine damage from long-term use of gauze/oil filters like K&Ns--worn cams, bearings, cylinders, etc. Stock VFR filters are plain gorgeous things.

    Good reads, both:
    http://www.fireblades.org/forums/ar...e/11140-air-filters-dyno-honda-cbr-929rr.html
    http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html (ISO testing)

    Kristian
     
  2. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    Interesting read there. Funny your timing, I'm getting close to dyno pulls in regards to how the header stacks up. I had it in mind since I have two vfrs in the pipe, one will have a piper cross, the other K-N. I will see how it all plays out, I'm curious. Who knows, I might even throw a Oem filter in the mix now just for the sake of knowing for a fact ;) I can agree on the newer generation of filtration has been stepped up a notch for sure. Back in the day it was a no brainier if you wanted the extra HPs or maybe it was how it made the engine spin up faster, IDK, back then other than it worked we didn't have dynos that said different , you wanted more get up and go, you threw on a freer flowing filter and added a header with glass pacs. Now with this new tech running the show, probably not so much today.
     
  3. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    You dudes need to get together to sort oot the oil filter problems if ya want to make a splash.
     
  4. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    On an otherwise stock VFR800, I am sure the oem filter is fine, but if you were to have a VFR800 with a race header, slip-on, snorkel/flapper delete, upgraded velocity stacks and tuning, I am sure a higher flowing air filter would help.

    You will find that a lot of people on this forum, use KN air filters (DON'T USE KN OIL FILTERS), just for their re-usability, not performance and some are at over 100,000 miles.
     
  5. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    ^ yep, damn, where's the like button or is thanks the way to say it..
     
  6. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    On Tapatalk it's a <3

    Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
     
  7. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    On my 21" screen its kind of in the lower left hand corner.

    The filaments in the K&N air filter are plastic and washable. Aboot 70k on my 91 and the K&N is still truckin. Over oiling will gum one up. No engine goodies or hotrod stuff on the bike. Runs just fine since new. I don't count the Yoshimura can. It was on the bike when I bought it. I think the dealer told me that alone was good for 25 horse. I was thinking he may have been a little off or just exited..

    Yes, when washed they do take some time to dry oot. It is also not a real good idea to toss one in the dishwasher or one of those commercial washing machines.

    Three other K&N air filters on my bikes. One on the SR500 when the 32mm carb was replaced with a 34mm, the ported and flowed head and the 90mm piston was installed. Washable too.

    Two on the BMW when the 40mm flatslides replaced the 40mm Bing diaphragms. Way too much to list on the Beemer. aka "the money pit" which is the faster accelerating of the three bikes. Also washable. The bikes are too...:)
     
  8. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    Not to run this thread aground. But looking at a Scott's filter, I know the theory you get what you pay for, still? That price of 139.00 has me scratching my head at the moment. I'm not saying no, as I've spent my pesos differently on other things. Just saying.
    http://www.scottsonline.com/Product_Purchase.php?PartType=3&Bike_ID=834
     
  9. Lint

    Lint Member

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    I have an idea for an experiment to see if, in the real world, there is a difference in air filter media filtration. Perhaps one could put some sort of adhesive in the airbox and run it for a while and see which filter keeps it cleanest, longest... Just a thought, no guarantees this would really prove anything...
     
  10. ksoholm

    ksoholm New Member

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    Why are you sure of that? The link above shows the exact opposite--the gent with the 929 ran three exhaust systems with three filters; K&N was worst. Flapper mod, snorkel mod--as before, no one has show any significant benefit in reliable testing. I know there's a commercial interest here, but, that doesn't mean the objective evidence shows benefit. In these matters, objective testing is available to demonstrate benefit; otherwise, it's the emperor's new clothes. Like the 929 guy and truck filter testing above showed.

    People doing a particular thing has never been a reliable indicator of the objective validity of that thing. K&N (and corporations generally) have terrific marketing.

    Best,

    Kristian
     
  11. ksoholm

    ksoholm New Member

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    Your R100 is quicker than your VFR??
     
  12. ksoholm

    ksoholm New Member

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    Ah, they did. Read the ISO test I linked to. The K&N performed poorly.
     
  13. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    Well, you can't have mine!
     
  14. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    Yes, The R100RS is faster accelerating than the stock 1991 VFRF. The BMW is far from stock.
     
  15. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

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    "These test were run on 108 Octane Sunoco "pump" race gas on a DJ 250 and were made without any third party fuel management system (i.e. PC111 etc.)"


    Your test showed:
    No snorkel/flapper delete
    No velocity Stack upgrade
    Zero tuning of the AFR

    Just:
    Exhaust
    K&N Air filter
    Race gas
    Hopes and dreams of the Air:Fuel staying in check or improving, which obviously didn't happen.

    TLDR; Install power commander, and a better air filter like a Pipercross, actually dyno tune between runs and try again.

    P.S. I was never a fan of K&N and I wouldn't be surprised if they flowed less CFM than the OEM filter. I am a big fan of Pipercross and would like to see that tested.
     
  16. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    According to the article the K&N did not perform well. My question would be where did they get that diesel motorcycle that was used in the test. I think the USMC was looking at some diesel engined Suzukis for awhile.

    My guess is they were dropped when Standard oil jacked up the price of not only #4 diesel but jet fuel too.

    I was unable to see who actually wrote the article. Maybe I can check that out through family members who worked for Nissan.
     
  17. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    What the adhesive might have been is anyone's guess. Big wads of bubblegum getting loose and sucked into open throttle bodies come to mind.
     
  18. ksoholm

    ksoholm New Member

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    Wow, stock RSs ran quartermiles in around 13.5 @ 100 MPH; your VFR managed 11.4s @118+ MPH.

    What did you do to your RS? Even with Krauser 4-valve heads on a 1070cc kit, it sounds impossible; color me impressed.
     
  19. Gator

    Gator Insider

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    If you look at the stock vs K&N vs Pipercross its is very apparent the the Pipercross has considerably more area to flow air, they use almost the entire air box area. They are very well made and have a long great rep. Mine has already paid for itself. I'm sure it can flow more air, but that probably is not an issue as all I have done are the FMF cans, Power commander and tune. Runs very linear and smooth.
     
  20. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    Great research right out of a couple of websites. Neither bike has ever been on a drag strip. The only bike I ever took through the traps was a BSA Goldstar that was a factory flat tracker. This was going good until the competition pointed out that the bike didn't have brakes.. Lions Drag Strip. Long Beach, CA grew up about two rock throws away from the strip.

    Cars at the strip.? A few. Even at PIR. A few runs in a bracket car and a fuel roadster. What you are missing with the data from some website is like most expert "data", flawed, since it makes little or no mention of rider/driver skill. As an example just for shits and giggles, A fairly large guy like me at about 210lbs could jump on CR's hot VFR and all the pesos in the Banco de Mexico would say I am not going to have a higher trap speed or ET than CR.

    You also assume incorrectly that the Krauser heads were installed in a stock condition. Would that you could actually ride even a stock RS or an R90 sans the Bing carbs you would have a better grasp of the actual experience.

    Just addressing the heads and pistons, the heads were ported and polished. The data came from Jerry Branchs shop in SoCal. The heads were also milled raising the CR to 12:1. All the pushrods were micro-welded at the mushroom ends and the entire geometry was modified by Dick Ehrens (RIP) Assembly and tweaking was done by Both Eric D'Turk, Rocky Phoenix both of whom now earn their daily tacos by tuning Ferraris and last but not least Bill Buckingham who has cranked out a shitload of custom built airhead BMWs of extraordinary quality.

    Lots of great advice and tech savvy was "donated" by San Jose BMW who at the time were road racing airhead BMWs and the guys at Luftmeister in SoCal.

    Except for a hot cam which BTW is not recommended when Krauser heads are installed the bike is "full house" and the VFR engine is bone stock unless one wishes to count a K&N (horsepower robbing SOB) air filter and a 26 year old Yoshimura can..

    I am reminded of the story told aboot Winston Churchill, when a person of the gentler gender called him a drunk. Churchill replied, so it is said, I may be drunk Madam but you are fat and ugly and I shall be sober come morning. (paraphrased of course since I was not witness.) Great leader tried recently to pull aboot that same routine recently and fell flat..

    Any color you feel is right, go for it..
     
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