Single Sided Swingarm on VF500F?

Discussion in '1st & 2nd Generation 1983-1989' started by BLIGHT, Feb 25, 2012.

  1. TOE CUTTER

    TOE CUTTER Mullet Man

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    I would be curious to see how an NC30 swing arm would fit up, sounds like a better choice given the size of the VF500.
     
  2. hopit88

    hopit88 New Member

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    My '91 arm is 22.75" on the bike. Probably in the middle of the adjustment. Really a secondary consideration. I think first and foremost, if you can even get the '94-'97 arm in, you'll have a hard time with wheel alignment. The problem I think with the 500 is, the motor is narrow compared to other 25 year old bikes that get the VFR(or other) installed. You see KZ900's and CBX's with this mod but there's plenty of room to go left. There are modern twins(you'd think they were narrow) like the SV's but their frames are probably wider than the 500's? You just have so little room to push it left and still have good wheel and then chain alignment. It's not a dig to your tenacity, just some raw numbers that are fighting you. Hopefully I'm wrong, I am just guessing after all.
     
  3. CobraMGH

    CobraMGH New Member

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  4. BLIGHT

    BLIGHT New Member

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    Not a bad idea... I looked at the frame and I think the 90 deg V4 would be too large to fit in there. The VT650 is a narrow-angle v twin and the clearance for the rear cylinder seems too small for a wider V angle. I think I'll continue to investigate the SSS adaptation to the VF500.
    Thanks for your ideas!
    BLIGHT
     
  5. hopit88

    hopit88 New Member

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    Sorry but this doesn't really apply. Totally different motor width and frame dimensions, plus, that's an 800 arm which is 10.75" at the pivot point. No way that's going in a 500 frame.
     
  6. BLIGHT

    BLIGHT New Member

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    Thanks for the measurement Hopit. If you can get me one more measurement it would be helpful. What is the distance from your chain CL to the CL of the bike? You can measure the distance between the frame members at the pivot point, and then measure the distance from the left side to chain CL. That gives me something to compare the VF500 measurements to.

    Regarding engine width, could be an issue, but remember my SuperHawk 1000 was a 90 deg V-twin, and really narrow... the SSS still worked on it for chain alignment. I've seen Honda SSS arms installed on really wide engines too, like the CBX 6 cylinder. Why does that work? Because Honda (and motorcycles in general) have a narrower transmission case than the engine block to place the sprocket inside the frame rails, and in the right place to line up with the rear sprocket. Here's a pic of the VFR arm on a CBX:

    [​IMG]

    So, if you could provide that chain offset from bike CL, that will tell me if the VF500 is even close! Thanks in advance for your help!
    Cheers!
    BLIGHT
    PS: I just snagged the real-deal NC30 fuel tank from the chap in England!!! No messing with making some oddball tank fit up with the bodywork!
     
  7. CobraMGH

    CobraMGH New Member

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    Sorry, my mistake then. I thought some of the information and work process was going to be helpful.
     
  8. hopit88

    hopit88 New Member

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    I know this is an apples to oranges kind of thing but it might illustrate the chain issue. This guy wanted to mount a 5.5 CBR rim on his VF1000R. After getting the wheel centered, he machined the sprocket carrier to get the rear sprocket back towards the wheel. You can see here that with minimal clearance to the tire, the chain runs true to the large offset front sprocket. It ended up looking great but a much larger bike here.
    chain.jpg

    front sprocket.jpg


    Keep in mind the R frame is wider than the 500's and the motor and transmission as well. Even with his tolerances at a minimum, the front sprocket still interfered with the front sprocket cover so he notched it and ultimately the clutch slave was VERY close. Can't say as I would want chain lube in there but that's just me. I would venture a guess with the 500, you would not only be in the cover but likely the frame there as well.
    clutch slave.jpg

    This is the scenario for a 5.5 rear rim with tire, regardless of swingarm.

    BTW, good score on the tank!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012
  9. bradwsm

    bradwsm New Member

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    I think it would be bad ass! There is a lot of dooms day talk going on, but im my simple mind I see it this way: I put a 1000r swing arm on my 500, and I have seen sss on a 1000r so the sss can go on a 500! Just buy some parts and get in their and do it.... and post lots of pics.
    Good luck
     
  10. hopit88

    hopit88 New Member

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    Um...that's quite a leap in logic there. The R's swingarm is split in front and use's a 2 pivot bolt set up similar to the 500's so there's no need for a custom exhaust. Cut some metal off and you're on your way. Not real hard to get the 3.5" R wheel to line up, Try a 5.5 like he wants in your set up and get back to us. It would put this subject to rest.
     
  11. bradwsm

    bradwsm New Member

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    Im not saying it would be a snap, but if the 1000r went prety easy with the 3.5, I would start by looking at your bike with what appears to be a 5.5, then perform just about THE EXACT SAME THING and your in buisness!!! Not to mention someone on this forum has a 500 with a vfr 750 sss. look about half way down page 1.

    http://vfrworld.com/forums/1st-2nd-generation-1983-1989/19676-vf-500-front-end-swap.html
     
  12. hopit88

    hopit88 New Member

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    Forgive me but I'm at a loss with this statement. How can looking at a bike with a larger frame and motor and doing THE EXACT SAME THING help in any way. It's like saying, go look at a Hayabusa with a 310 rear tire on it and and just do the same thing, BINGO! Your project involved two very similar swingarms in width and 2 wheels that weren't far off either. I'm talking about a wheel that's 2 INCHES wider. I enjoy a good debate, it's good for the community but these are 2 different beasts and since we're both guessing, my experience tells me there's going to be major issues. Impossible? Who knows. I would never tell Blight not to try, he seems like a pretty intelligent guy with good credentials. I'm sure he appreciates a look ahead to the next curve.

    Thanks for the link. So if I read it correctly, it has a front end bordering on dangerous and a rear wheel out of alignment? I hope this isn't Blights bench mark for a safe and well handling VFR400 clone. It has the '94-97 arm so it will shoe horn in. It also has the 5 spoke 5" wheel which helps as well. God only knows what he's done to that Hindle since it seems the pipes are going out the stock direction. Read Jamie's comment. He is as well respected in early VF suspension and handling as anyone out there. If he says...

    "Also, the swingarm fits... but I'm 100% sure that it's not 'right'. I've done a lot of investigation in this area and have measured countless number of swingarms and compared them to the VF parts and the 3D models I've made of the VF frames. In looking at the pictures I can clearly see that whoever did this work made the #1 mistake when doing a swingarm swap: they lined up the chain. This is by far the easiest way to do it, but in this case it puts the wheel off center. The actaul amount is 10mm, that means this bike now has the equivalent of a bent frame."

    That's good enough for me and right along with what I was trying to convey. Just because you can get something "on" doesn't mean it's going to be right. You can get the chain to line up or you can get the wheel to line up but, call me crazy, I prefer mine to both be lined up. The internet is full of "builders" doing all kinds of things to motorcycles, many of them to the detriment of handling or safety. The French guy who cut a hole behind the pivot to get his SSSA on is a good example. If Blight's chain will hit the frame and he decides to just channel out some material then that's his ambulance ride. I don't think I ever told him he couldn't do it and thanks to these photo's it quite clear he can get exactly whats there. What's there leaves me with a big ? Your results may vary.

    So to answer the original question...yes, someone has tried it.
     
  13. Iospina

    Iospina New Member

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    not trying to thread-jack or anything but which SSSA would be the best fit for a 84 VF700F? trying to put some plans together for the next frigged winter
     
  14. BLIGHT

    BLIGHT New Member

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    Wow! lots of opinions, rhetoric, and 'hand-wringing' on this thread! So... back to a previous post, Hopit can you get me the measurements I asked for earlier?

    The distance between the frame rails on your VF1000R SSS project bike, and the distance that the chain CL is offset from the centerline of the bike? (bike/wheel centerline being 1/2 the distance between frame rails I would assume)

    This will tell me a lot in figuring sprocket position in relation to the wheel centerline. These various swingarms that are available may have different offsets for their original wheel widths to work on certain models. I don't mind a 5" rear wheel and a narrower tire BTW if that's a limitation. I have my friend with the 91 VFR doing the same measurements for me. I'm sure I'll ask for others to help as well before I actually make the engineering decision to proceed with, or abort the SSS conversion.

    The good part: I have 2 VF500f's so I can use my unregistered 'mule' as a fitment unit for NC30 bodywork brackets, fork work or the SSS conversion if I figure a way to make it work, and in the meantime, continue to ride and modify the other VF as warranted.

    Rest assured everyone... I'm not an idiot, I've done this before on other bikes (properly!) and I won't do some '0.5 assed' conversion. There may or may not be good reason to be so cautious and discouraging with some of the other folks here, but you need not worry in my case. If it doesn't work, it just doesn't work, period. But... that doesn't mean I won't exhaust all the options, including the investigation of Ducati and Triumph SSS arms if they are the right pieces for the job.

    Cheers, back to the Daytona 500...
    BLIGHT
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012
  15. BLIGHT

    BLIGHT New Member

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    Single sided Swingarm Dimensions

    I found this information online:

    There are a number of SSSAs used by honda on the VFR over the years. Here's some dimensions of the different arms that I found on another message board:

    Honda VFR ('90-'2003+), Hawk, RC30/45, NSR250 all use the same relative rear wheel offset. i.e. mix and match wheels amongst the various models and so long as the spindle face is unmolested the wheels will remain centered.

    90-93 VFR (shock linkage mount is two lobes on bottom of swingarm)(shock end is a 'fork')
    Length: 565
    Pivot width: 242 (+3.5 thrust collar)
    Pivot diameter: 20
    Eccentric outside diameter: 105
    Eccentric width: 70 (+3 crenelated 'edge')
    Caliper carrier diameter: 75
    Caliper carrier width: 14
    Brake rotor diameter: 255
    Brake rotor mount diameter: 110
    Sprocket mount diameter: 175
    Wheel drive diameter: 100

    94-97 VFR (shock linkage mount is one lobe on bottom of swingarm)(shock end is an 'eye')
    Length: 560
    Pivot width: 227 (+3.5 thrust collar)
    Pivot diameter: 20
    Eccentric outside diameter: 105
    Eccentric width: 70 (+3 crenelated 'edge')
    Caliper carrier diameter: 75
    Caliper carrier width: 14
    Brake rotor diameter: 255
    Brake rotor mount diameter: 110
    Sprocket mount diameter: 175
    Wheel drive diameter: 100

    Hawk (shock is direct-mounted to top of swingarm)(shock end is an 'eye')
    Length: 545
    Pivot width: 235
    Pivot diameter (right): 15
    Pivot diameter (left): <22
    Eccentric outside diameter: 105
    Eccentric width: 70 (+3 crenelated 'edge')
    Caliper carrier diameter: 75
    Caliper carrier width: 14
    Brake rotor diameter: 240
    Brake rotor mount diameter: 100
    Sprocket mount diameter: 165
    Wheel drive diameter: 100

    RC30 (shock linkage mount is two lobes on bottom of swingarm)(shock end is a 'fork')
    Length: 530
    Pivot width: 235
    Pivot diameter: 20
    Eccentric outside diameter: 105
    Eccentric width: 70 (+3 crenelated 'edge')
    Caliper carrier diameter: 76
    Caliper carrier width: 13
    Brake rotor diameter: 220
    Brake rotor mount diameter: 110
    Sprocket mount diameter: 140
    Wheel drive diameter: 85

    RC45 (shock linkage mount is two lobes on bottom of swingarm)(shock end is a 'fork')
    Length: 540
    Pivot width: 250
    Pivot diameter: 20
    Eccentric outside diameter: 117
    Eccentric width: 77 (+3 crenelated 'edge')
    Caliper carrier diameter: 76
    Caliper carrier width: 13
    Brake rotor diameter: 220
    Brake rotor mount diameter: 110
    Sprocket mount diameter: 140
    Wheel drive diameter: 85

    RVF400 (shock linkage mount is two lobes on bottom of swingarm)(shock end is a 'fork')
    Length: 540 (??)
    Pivot width: 215
    Pivot diameter: 20
    Eccentric outside diameter: 105 (??)
    Eccentric width: 60 (+3 crenelated 'edge')
    Caliper carrier diameter: 76 (??)
    Caliper carrier width: 15
    Brake rotor diameter: 220
    Brake rotor mount diameter: 110
    Sprocket mount diameter: 140
    Wheel drive diameter: 85

    NSR250 / mc28
    Wheel drive diameter: 85

    MV Agusta F4 (shock linkage mount is bolt on, under swingarm. linkage arrangement is similar to Ducati 916)
    Length: 545
    Pivot width: 255
    Pivot diameter: 20
    Eccentric outside diameter: 105
    Eccentric width: 76
    Wheel drive diamter: 85

    Whats important to note is the pivot width, obviously you want to measure your own bike and choose the arm that is closest or preferably undersized. I bought one that was slightly oversized, by a few mm and so I had to remove some material from the frame. If the one you buy is undersized you can make spacers and essentially adjust the wheel offset with the swingarm position, this can be important if you want to go with a wide rear wheel.

    Also note the pivot diameter... this is the diameter of the shaft that passes through both the holes in your frame and slides into the bearings on the swingarm. Its ok if its not identical, you can always make up some spacers/bushings (or have a machine shop make them if you don't have the tools) but keep this in mind as an added expense.


    The actual inside frame width is 9.25" (235mm) on my VF500F. So, it looks like it might be feasible to drop in a complete VFR750 bearing-carrier (eccentric) into say, a Hawk GT arm (235mm wide) since the eccentrics are typically 105mm OD. That way you get the 4-bolts to attach the wheel, and aren't locked into the Hawk wheel with the center nut.

    I like the center nut look (rather than lug nuts) and on my VTR1000 I used a 'hub-cap' from a Canadian supplier (it was made in Germany) that was a thin round alum. disc, with a 'faux' single nut in the center. No funny machine work necessary, and when painted & installed looks like the real deal!

    [​IMG]

    The other advantage to the Hawk GT arm is that it's a bit shorter than the VFR arms to keep my pivot point to hub center around 21". This would keep the VF500F wheelbase close to original.

    Since the Hawk has no linkage, it's a simpler installation with just the right length shock for ride height. I made my own modified (length, connections) VTR1000 rear shock on my VF1000R and it works perfectly for me. The air-assisted OEM shocks on old VF's are just junk IMO.

    Finally... the Hawk GT arm has the open 'Y' at the front for exhaust pipe clearance too. Even with the long pivot thru-bolt (I feel is stronger than side-pins only) in place, there should be ample clearance for the rear head-pipes.

    So... I'm gonna pop for a Hawk GT arm and see if I can locate a VFR eccentric hub (bearing carrier), 90-93 17" 8 spoke wheel, rotor, caliper, & sprocket.

    It will cost more buying stuff on eBay piecemeal, so I'll just start with the Hawk GT arm and check the fit and alignment on my 'mule'. If it's a total no-go, I can always resell it on the bay. I used a laser to align the SSS on the SuperHawk conversion I did, just to be more accurate when I shimmed the left side pivot spacers. That arm actually bolts to the engine cases (not the frame) and the two were just made for each other. I can always offset sprockets if need be... I also have a small lathe for some parts and really good machinist for larger items.

    See ya, and I'll post any news on the project when it happens (both good and bad)
    BLIGHT
     
  16. hopit88

    hopit88 New Member

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    VF500 stock distance from wheel center to outside of chain(the important number) was reported to me to be around 90mm+/-. Mine is around 125mm.
    My brain is fuzzy today but it seems this number would be constant among VFR's, regardless of which swingarm, if the hubs are the same. No one is lengthening or shortening the Hub itself. If all hondas have the same offset from center, it shouldn't matter which wheel either. Regardless of which arm is doing the holding, the complete hub assembly is a fixed length. So put any wheel on and it should be around 125mm+/- from CL to chain outside, No? I'm just asking.
    Now if the hub differs from gen to gen then this number would as well. It appears the cush drive/sprocket carrier is similar amongst them but...?

    If all this is true, then you're looking at around 35mm that front sprocket has to move left(if you use a 5.5" wheel). Not saying that's a definite number but if it's close, that's a sizable jump. You might gain 6mm or so(half of the .5" difference in wheel width) using the 94-97 VFR rounded 5 spoke(5") wheel but that still puts you at +/-24mm. It's entirely possible I'm seeing this incorrectly and I have no 500 in front of me so ...please feel free to erase the chalk board.

    When you take your CL to outside of chain measurement. Do it at the wheel(we'll assume it's at CL) and not between the frame rails at the pivot. The swingarm might not be centered in the frame and the wheel might not be centered in the swingarm but centered to CL. Just so we're talking the same measurement. There's room for error digging around under there for me, it's awfully busy. Ask your buddy what his CL to chain outside is on his VFR. I'd be curious to see if it's in the ball park with mine. I could just have a freak set up.
     
  17. DaHose

    DaHose New Member

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    I like the lug nut cap on your VTR. Would that fit a stock 5th gen wheel? Do you still have the supplier info.?

    Jose
     
  18. sjona2011

    sjona2011 New Member

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    a sssa on a little vf500 sounds awesome...but i just love the look of your vtr! well done!!
     
  19. BLIGHT

    BLIGHT New Member

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    From Hopit88: VF500 stock distance from wheel center to outside of chain(the important number) was reported to me to be around 90mm+/-. Mine is around 125mm. My brain is fuzzy today but it seems this number would be constant among VFR's, regardless of which swingarm, if the hubs are the same. No one is lengthening or shortening the Hub itself. If all hondas have the same offset from center, it shouldn't matter which wheel either. Regardless of which arm is doing the holding, the complete hub assembly is a fixed length. So put any wheel on and it should be around 125mm+/- from CL to chain outside, No? I'm just asking. Now if the hub differs from gen to gen then this number would as well. It appears the cush drive/sprocket carrier is similar amongst them but...?

    If all this is true, then you're looking at around 35mm that front sprocket has to move left(if you use a 5.5" wheel). Not saying that's a definite number but if it's close, that's a sizable jump. You might gain 6mm or so(half of the .5" difference in wheel width) using the 94-97 VFR rounded 5 spoke(5") wheel but that still puts you at +/-24mm. It's entirely possible I'm seeing this incorrectly and I have no 500 in front of me so ...please feel free to erase the chalk board.

    When you take your CL to outside of chain measurement. Do it at the wheel(we'll assume it's at CL) and not between the frame rails at the pivot. The swingarm might not be centered in the frame and the wheel might not be centered in the swingarm but centered to CL. Just so we're talking the same measurement. There's room for error digging around under there for me, it's awfully busy. Ask your buddy what his CL to chain outside is on his VFR. I'd be curious to see if it's in the ball park with mine. I could just have a freak set up.


    Thanks for the measurements... I went out in the garage after I got your post, and measured the '86 VF500F and my '86 VF1000R. It's odd, but I only come up with maybe a 1/4" difference between the two. That's using a wooden ruler to measure as you suggest, from the center crown of the tire over to the outside of the chain. I get ~4" to 4.25" between the two.

    I bought a Hawk GT arm assy. today and it will be fun to see how well it slides in there and if any offsetting is needed. I did read on the Hawk GT Forum that the GT has a narrower cush drive so maybe that brings the sprocket in a bit. Dunno until I just try it. Also, according to these guys it's a fairly simple mod to adapt the Hawk hub to 4 lugs, or even to adapt a Ducati wheel to it! Getting to be too many choices there...

    The Hawk GT arm should be here in a few days and I'll pop it in there and see what I see.

    Thanks again,
    BLIGHT
     
  20. BLIGHT

    BLIGHT New Member

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    It was made by Thurn Motorsports in Germany. I just sent them an email, since I will need one for the new project.
    I asked it they still make or sell them... we'll have to wait for a reply.
    Cheers,
    BLIGHT
     
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