Trail braking

Discussion in 'New Riders' started by DeeBee, Dec 26, 2016.

  1. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    One of those old Chinese guys said about the same thing. Or maybe he said sphinter instead of spectre.

    Dude still needs new rubber..
     
  2. DeeBee

    DeeBee New Member

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    Lmao , definitely need some new rubber .....so who wants to foot the bill for it.
     
  3. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    Try the parking lot exit at your local Wal*Mart. Make a sign on a piece of cardboard that says," I need new rubber".

    Bring a dog and some crutches for props.
     
  4. James Bond

    James Bond Member

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    I actually watched a Youtube video last night that stated, in effect, some people get a very POSITIVE brain chemical high from surviving dangerous activities. They tend to repeat those activities. In my case, it's been proficiency in class 5 whitewater, intensive competitive sports, military combat that I actually looked forward to, and now, motorcycles in some of the most technical riding in the country (near you). Then there are people that get high from collecting stamps, and cooking. We're all built different.
     
  5. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    As long as we are sharing. One of those old Chinese guys once said, "Getting shot at ain't all that bad. Getting hit is. He even posted some pix that ya never see on the TeeVee.

    https://www.google.com/search?hl=en....2016...0j0i10i24k1j0i30k1j0i24k1.bERyu_0u2KM
     
  6. DeeBee

    DeeBee New Member

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    Yeah those small calibers can be devastating. I heard and more recently /\ saw that small light calibers 17-22 often follow or glance off of bones.
    Can't ever imagine getting my jollies from a stamp collection (although I had one when I was younger and forbidden to have fun ....err I mean do dangerous and risky things) like road race , an arch enemies girlfriend etc.)
    But putting anything with wheels through its paces and learning exactly what it will and won't do particularly at speed. Ooohhh yeah someone get me a towel..
    Lmao
    Might fair better getting a cute gal to hold a "will work for rubber" sign. Just a few takers and I could have my rear wheel, radials, and a new shock.


    Real plan is to throw my built blaster back together , complete with fox racing shocks in the front, and adjustable 400ex shock in the rear, as well as dual led running lights , HO stator, RR and battery, aftermarket front and rear racks, as well as a custom built engine that makes stock banshee owners blush. I was in the process of upgrading to a larger Reed valve and exhaust as well as a water cooled head. Jetting got difficult and my exhaust port needed milder timing to run the more open pipe requiring a new jug with new porting to see any benefit.
    But even going back to the previous pipe and retaining the air cooled setup leaves it a quite solid performer.
    Shame I know i wont get near what I invested in it , not counting the hours spent with a micro air grinder and various porting stones and bits, but it beats letting it sit in my garage and take up space, whilebthe piston jug and head sit fresh and spotless in my closet.
     
  7. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    Sell the stamps, pimp out the chica and get new rubber. I figure if your job doesn't pay enough to pop for new rubber maybe dump the ATV too since that rig or another got you shot at.
     
  8. James Bond

    James Bond Member

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    Watched another documentary on Casey Stoner (now retired) and he stated that if you don't ride 10/10 in MotoGP, you don't stay in MotoGP. I never ride my 10/10. I'm not paid what Stoner was paid either. I am accepting handouts though.....
     
  9. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    OOTV picked out the sharp end of the stick in this thread...it's RVFR's link to an educated 'riding in the zone' article [See RVFR's post above]

    Here's another way to think about trail braking, and for simplicity's sake, let's just stick with the front tire by itself.

    Let's say your front tire has 100 points of traction total. 100 max. Finito. Use more than 100 points of traction and then the front tire slides. Riding in a straight line on smooth dry, unlittered pavement, all 100 points of your front tire's traction can be applied to braking forces. Many of us have proven this by braking hard and raising the rear wheel, but still not skidding the front tire.

    Now let's say you begin a very slight turn but are still under full braking - 100 points to braking. You must allocate some of your 100 points of traction to turning forces. Let's say you give 10 points to turning. If you are using all 100 points of your tire's traction for braking, you must release a very slight amount of brake lever pressure as you begin even a slight turn. 100 points braking needs to reduce to 90. Smoothly ease up on the brake lever a bit, and be in charge of the transition toward turning. 90 braking/10 turning

    Note - let's only deal with maximum use of all traction available to describe trail braking. This is not realistic and NOT SAFE on public streets.

    If the turn we have entered in our example is more than slight, soon we will be needing more than 10 points of traction for turning. So we must give up more points of braking traction to continue the turn. At this point, let's smoothly release some more pressure on the brake lever to gradually adjust to a ratio of 50 turn, 50 brake. We are well into the turn, but still well on the brakes. So trail braking is simply a trade-off between braking traction and turning traction.

    TRAIL BRAKING IS A VALUABLE SKILL AND ADDS TO ANY RIDER'S SMOOTHNESS AND CONTROL BUT IS ONLY CRITICAL WHEN THE COMBINATION OF THESE TWO FORCES - TURNING AND BRAKING - EQUALS THE TOTAL TRACTION AVAILABLE. None of us should attempt MAXIMUM trail braking exercises in our living rooms or on public streets - it allows no margin for error, windows, granite countertops, cars exiting driveways, dogs, or law enforcement officers.

    That said, if our now-established turn tightens in radius beyond medium, then more turning traction will be needed, so more braking traction will have to be given up.

    Stoner, as referenced above in this thread, and other great racers and riders, take this progression to the point of 0.001 points braking and 99.99 points turning...and beyond. These riders we admire trade off turn traction and brake traction in bulk sales...in graceful exchanges of bike balance, getting the front end pointed, and slowing down really really fast while still increasing lean angle. They also get on the gas sooner at higher lean angles than we humans can imagine.

    Here's the fascinating rub: the reverse of the braking equation is true of throttle. None of us wait until we are completely finished with a turn and riding straight ahead at zero lean angle to add throttle. Sooo...

    At the apex of our 'perfect world turn', we've SMOOTHLY progressed to zero brake points of traction and 100 turn points. What happens now? What could help us get out of this turn better? Throttle! But how much traction can we allocate to throttle when we're still at 100 points of turning? Answer - NONE. We have to reduce lean angle and give up turn points before we add throttle. From there on out, the progression is simple - turning decreases, throttle increases. Rinse and repeat until at full throttle or you have gracefully given up all 100 turning points to acceleration [Whichever comes first - depends on bike/rider, and our VFRs are not the most demanding in the throttle category].

    Hope this helps a bit.
     
  10. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    This is copyrighted material By Nick Ienatsch



    Trail Braking: On the track to win, on the street to survive
    Apr 29, 2014 | Education, Riding & Technique
    By Nick Ienatsch, Lead Instructor –*Yamaha Champions Riding School
    www.ridelikeachampion.com
    www.fastersafer.com

    Trail Braking Diagram
    Many “riding experts” feel trail braking is an advanced technique that beginning riders shouldn’t worry about. I don’t agree. It’s the new, low-mileage riders that are crashing the most, and the main reason they crash is due to too much speed at the corner entrance. Or as I put it, a lack of control at the corner entrance; the brakes are a control, and riders that crash rush into the corner without this control on. So wherever you are in your riding career, study the following column. Keep it with you for the next few weeks and review it before and after rides. Riding improvement happens in your mind when the bike is sitting still and I encourage you to work hard at your riding because mistakes can be catastrophic. Riding well is difficult, riding poorly is easy and painful.
    Trail braking will soon reveal itself as the secret to outright speed on the racetrack, but more importantly, the secret to consistent street riding at any pace, on any bike. A final point: an expert rider’s touch on the front-brake lever is much, much finer and lighter than you realize.
    How can the fastest roadracers win races? If they’re going faster than everyone else, shouldn’t they crash more frequently? The Ben Spies of our sport set track records, yet collect championships by finishing races. Lesser riders try to match the champion’s pace, but crash trying. Amateur racers come to the same track and crash while pushing to get within six seconds of the champion’s lap time. How can this be?
    The confused “safety experts” in this country would have everyone believe that speed and safety are mutually exclusive, but racing tells us a completely different story. In racing, we find the fastest riders are often the least likely to hit the ground. Much of this can be explained by unique natural abilities such as eyesight and balance, or put down to a superior machine. But there is one aspect of their riding that will help every street and track rider in the world:
    The champions realize that every corner has a slow point.
    It doesn’t matter how long they dirttracked, who their daddy is, how old they are, what they eat or how they train…the fast guys know that each corner has a point where the bike must be going a certain speed. Arrive at this particular point with too much speed and the bike runs wide or crashes. Arrive with too little speed and you’re gonna get beat. The best riders have the ability to arrive at a corner’s slowest point closer to the precise speed the chassis can handle. This ability makes them faster than the rider who over-slows his/her bike at the corner entrance, and more consistent than the rider who carries too much speed into the corner.
    And this ability is called trail braking. You need to learn it…on the track to win, on the street to survive and fully enjoy this sport.
    The term trail braking refers to the practice of trailing some front-brake pressure into the corner. Or you can think of trailing off the brakes as you apply lean angle. There are two extremely important reasons to trail your brakes into the corner, but before we get to that, understand that the majority of your braking should be done before you tip your bike into the corner. Don’t get confused and believe that you are going to add brake pressure as you add lean angle. Just the opposite: you want to give away brake pressure as you add lean angle because your front tire can only handle so much combined braking and lean angle. I explain it with a 100-point chart in my book Sport Riding Techniques, writing about a front tire that has 100 total points of traction divisible between braking and cornering. As we add lean-angle points, we give away braking points. I’ve heard of riders believing that trail braking means running into the corner and then going to the brakes. There are some corners with that type of layout, but most corners require brake application well before turn-in. I think the point will become clear as we delve into why we want to trail brake.
    We want to trail brake to control our speed closer to the slowest point of the corner. The closer we get to that point, the easier it is to judge whether we’re going too fast or too slow. If your style is to let go of the brakes before turning into the corner, understand that you’re giving up on your best speed control (the front brake) and hoping that your pre-turn-in braking was sufficient to get your speed correct at the slowest point in the corner. If you get in too slow, this is no big deal. The problem comes when the rider’s upright braking doesn’t shed the required speed and suddenly the rider is relying on lean angle to make it through the surprisingly tight turn. Or to get under the gravel patch. Or to the right of the Chevy pickup halfway in his/her lane.
    We don’t crash on perfect days with perfect pavement and perfect tires. We crash when something unexpected crops up. The gravel, the truck in your lane, the water across the road mid-corner. If you’ve entered the corner with no brakes, then you’ve basically reduced your options to attempting to reapply the brakes when you see the unexpected surprise, adding lean angle, or standing the bike up and running off the road. You need to make a habit of turning into corners with just a little brake pressure because the unexpected is much easier to deal with if your brake pads are already squeezing your discs. You will be in control of your speed and as your speed drops, your bike will be able to carve a tighter radius at the same lean angle.
    If you’re sitting there thinking, “This guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about, my bike stands up when I grab the brakes mid-corner,” I’d have to say you’re right. Abrupt braking midcorner will collapse the fork and make the bike stand up. Remember, trail braking is a light touch on the brakes, not a grab. Think of trail braking as fine-tuning your entrance speed. The big chunks of speed are knocked off while straight-line braking.
    Makes sense, doesn’t it? This sport should make sense to you. If someone tells you something that doesn’t make sense, ask questions. If it still doesn’t make sense, quit listening to them. In this case, I’m telling you it’s easier to judge your speed the closer you get to the slowest point in the corner. Your best speed-setting device is your front brake, so use it as you turn into the corner. All corners? No, don’t make this math. Corners differ and your techniques must differ to deal with them. But the majority of corners have their slowest point somewhere after the turn-in. Find that point and trail the brakes closer to it.
    The second reason you need to trail brake is because you can actually improve your bike’s steering geometry, helping it turn better. A slightly collapsed front fork tightens the bike’s rake and trail numbers and allows it to turn in less time and distance. Tighter steering geometry is one reason a sport bike turns better than a cruiser.* Rather than let go of the front brake before the turn-in, keep a bit of pressure on and you’ll immediately feel the difference.
    Let’s again study the rider who gets all his/her braking done before the turn-in. As the front brake is released the fork springs rebound, putting the bike in the worst geometry to steer. As this rider works within this technique, he/she will attempt to turn the bike quicker and quicker, trying to make up for the extended steering geometry with more and more aggressive steering inputs. The faster they ride, the wider the bike wants to run through the corners, so the harder they’ll try to steer. This rider will be forced to use more and more lean angle in an effort to “scrub off” speed with the front tire. Aggressive steering inputs and lots of lean angle…a recipe for disaster.
    If we could convince this rider to stay on the brake lever a little bit longer, that lengthened brake pressure would tighten the steering geometry and the bike would turn better. It would carve a tighter radius sooner in the corner. It would take less lean angle. It would reduce the need for aggressive steering inputs, and anyone who does this sport well realizes that aggression with the brakes, throttle and lean angle can get painful. Fast guys load the tires smoothly, whether accelerating, braking or turning. Forget the “flick”.
    Time for a real-world example. I’ve worked at the Freddie Spencer High Performance Riding School and the Yamaha Champions School for fourteen years and in addition to sportbike training, we’ve had the chance to host groups of cruiser riders several times in those years. Over a period of ten days last year, almost 800 riders had a chance to ride a variety of motorcycles on the track and one of the two main points we stressed was the use of the brakes. Keep in mind that some of these riders had never even used the front brake, having heard from an uncle or neighbor that the rear brake was the one to use. On a long-wheelbase cruiser, the rear brake is quite effective, but mastering the front brake is still the secret to bike control. Some of these guys had ridden for over 30 years and were amazed at how much more bike control they had when they mastered the front brake. They were able to ride at a quicker pace than expected because they gained the confidence of slowing and turning their bikes at the next corner.
    One more real-world example. MotoGP (or World Superbike or 250GP or AMA Superbike, pick your favorite). All those guys trail-brake and do you know why? It’s faster and safer. Get in front of your TV and watch how long they stay on the front brake. They’re champions because they carry as much speed as possible to the slowest point in the corner (and as much speed as possible from the slowest point, but that’s another subject). It’s not just about speed, it’s about finishing tire tests, practice, qualifying and the race. Crashing is disastrous for street riders and equally problematic for racers who want a contract next year. Trail braking is about safety on the street and consistency on the track. It makes sense. You need to do it.

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  11. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    Agreed 100% on all points.

    Badbilly, I took Freddie's class with Nick and Jeff at LVMS in 1998 and 1999, and have attended several racing schools with Haney at Laguna Seca. Freddie's program is where I learned the 100 points of traction theory. The article you quoted fleshed it out with the change in bike geometry related to braking forces and compression of suspension better than I ever could. Thank you for adding detail.

    [Is this you, Nick? Are you now the point man on the N2 program? I couldn't find your name when searching the references at the bottom of the article]

    There are only one or two more elegant sensations in life than slowing on a motorcycle to enter a turn at the correct speed, continuing to decelerate into the turn, and accelerating out of the turn at the earliest safe moment...quickly.

    As I said, this concept shared by FS changed my riding for the better, and the safer. Let's all get safer and better at riding.
     
  12. RobVG

    RobVG Member

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    Had a similar situation but it was a guard rail not an embankment.
    I've realized that there are some people that need me to be alive and well. Trying to tone it down.

    Trail braking is foreign to me. If I'm going to try it, i'll be on straits first.
     
  13. Gator

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    Well that is just braking then Rob. lol
     
  14. Gator

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    Quick story about how important your shocks and geometry are to trail braking. At the end of a track season I knew my Ohlin forks were in dire need of a complete overhaul (they were diving way too far under hard braking) but wanted to squeeze in one more track day. Near the end of the day coming off the front straight into turn 1 a little hot and trail braking the front washed at about 70 mph and I took a nice low side slide. There are some bumps in that turn and the forks were at the bottom under the tail baking force so they had no working room to absorb the bumps and the front lost traction. Learned a few lessons that day. One was how to bend your shifter back without breaking it. Jumped back on and did some slower laps. lol
     
  15. RVFR

    RVFR Member

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    Funny thing here is I have naturally done this before I knew it had a name, just seems like the normal thing to do.
     
  16. Gator

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    Yeah we were doing it when we were teenagers chasing each other. It was a long time later I learned the term.
     
  17. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    A rose is a rose is a rose as long as your bike is sorted oot right,I always say.

    BTW this does not apply to vintage flat trackers or speedway.
     
  18. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

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    Nothing like coaching from the pros..I took from Pridmore when Reg was still teaching on a regular basis. Both Reg and Nick were instructors at a yearly bike event I am involved in. All this stuff for me is a street application. Never road raced. Did track days before they were called that when the car race guys would rent a track. This going back to an airport course in Galveston, TX on one of the less "popular" bikes around here and on SIR before it was PIR near Seattle.

    Good stuff all around..
     
  19. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

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    Dude [Badbilly] I taught for Reg a long, long time ago. On a 99 VFR, BTW. Jason [Reg's kid] would show up between AMA rounds, and he was the at that tiime the real deal! I was riding as fast as I could, and Jason would come by on a borrowed NX650, sliding both tires leaving black stripes on the pavement, enter later, and cut back in tighter. None of us had a chance.

    As you described, trading laps with car guys who had rented the track as the only way to get laps in sounds like hard core to me.

    Did you ever ride on the back of Reg's VFR for a couple laps? Did it change your riding forever?
     
  20. Lint

    Lint Member

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    Me too. Just seems natural and logical.
     
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