VFR1200FD engine failure at 23572km

Discussion in '7th Generation 2010-Present' started by fotodaddy, Mar 8, 2013.

  1. fotodaddy

    fotodaddy New Member

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    MY STORY

    Its been a while since I was here but thought to share my experience with you all. I have since sold off my VFR800 and was one of the firt with the VFR1200FDD.

    So the story starts on Sunday 03.03

    So...there I was....on my return trip from a Biker Event about 1000km from home.

    About 200km to go I start feeling a very very slight vibration through my handle bars.

    I stop my music and start paying some more attention to what's happening to the bike. I listen but can't really hear anything.....I am doing about 150km/hr. Slow down some and the vibrations increase.....I can also hear a strange sound. My first thought are of my front wheel bearings.

    So I slow down some more and come to a stop to have a closer look at the front wheel. Strange thing happens as I come to a stop..the bike goes off. Oh well, what to do. I get off, put the bike up on the centre stand and have a look/feel of the front wheel. All appears ok. So I start the bike again and the knocking/crashing/grinding sound that greets me causes my heart to sink.

    I am not going anywhere now....well at least, not on the VFR.

    Hire a minivan and load her up. About 2 hours later I am home and she is standing on the driveway. I can't bear to listen to her again so I go in and call it a day! But as I go to sleep, I am filled with thoughts of having to purchase a new engine! Sleep doesn't come easy!


    Monday 03.04

    Get to her and start a visual check.
    Oil level? Check
    Water level? Check
    Electricals or DTC? All good

    So I start her up again.

    The noise is terrible...but I listen on and I am pleasantly surprised to hear that the sound appears to be coming from the rear of the engine/gearbox assembly. perhaps the engine is OK and its just a shaft or bearing in the gear box? I engage first and the response is normal and as would be expected.

    So dissassembly starts! I figure that I might be able to do some investigation from the sides. Taking the clutch cover doesn't reveal much....and I realize I have no choice that to take the engine out of the frame and open her up.

    As the day ends I ponder on what might be wrong. Starting from what I know
    1. noise comes with the engine running
    2. gear selection appears to be "normal"
    3. noise appears to be coming from the rear of the engine/gearbox assembly.
    I figure that its either the countershaft or the main shaft thats screwed up.


    04.03

    So the pictures say the story.....for now.

    IMG_1318.jpg IMG_1322.jpg IMG_1326.jpg IMG_1333.jpg

    Fillings in the sump. Strange because I have only every serviced the bike with genuine Honda filters and I use the synthetic oil recommended by the shop I bought the bike from (I actually bought 6 4-liter cans along with the bike). My service interval is 5000km and I always change both the oil and the DCT filter.

    What could have gone wrong???

    So the digging continues and finally I have a damaged crack-shaft.

    Piston 1 appears to have lost its bearings somewhere along the line and the pictures say the rest.

    IMG_1335.jpg IMG_1336.jpg IMG_1338.jpg

    And the video of the engine running BEFORE I stripped it is here
     
  2. TOE CUTTER

    TOE CUTTER Mullet Man

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    The suckage

    Oh man that sucks oot loud :doh: .I am almost afraid to ask what the price of a new crank is. What is the price of a new crank?
     
  3. tinkerinWstuff

    tinkerinWstuff Administrator Staff Member

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    would have to wonder if regrind and oversize crank would be an option...

    I think you get the prize for 1st ever VFRW member to post pictures of the 1200 internals:VFR1200F::first:
     
  4. karazy

    karazy New Member

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    That does blow. Maybe you can link it back to the swarf recall and get a free engine out of this. Time to make some noise.
     
  5. jethro911

    jethro911 Member

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    I have to applaud you get er done attitude. Not many owners would sling their bike up and drop the motor like you did. You have my respect sir!

    Let's hope you can get a new crank and bearings without too much trouble. Perhaps a new oil pump is in order too? Bearings don't fail randomly, there is generally a good reason. The trick is finding that reason.
     
  6. duccmann

    duccmann Member

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    Was this a known problem with that year ? So by you tearing it down its way out of warrenty correct ? Big Suckage, sorry---I had to turn it off, my wifes in the other room goin---What the hell is that noise---Good luck
     
  7. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Call Falicon and repair the spun journal.....they are slow, but they do great work. they will do a single journal for $390.00.




    .
     
  8. 34468 Randy

    34468 Randy Secret Insider

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    Man. My ass puckered so much it tore a hole in my office chair when I heard that noise. Surely something was wrong for a long time that cause the bearings to fail like that. I agree with Jethro. I am no mechanic but there is no way in hell that bearings fail unless something was done wrong by someone sometime. You didn't say but what year is that bike and how many KM were on it when you bought it. If you bought it used, can the previous owner shed some light. If nothing negligent from an owner/operator stand point come to light, then I would be knocking at the door of Honda. If that is what can be expected of the 7th gen, Honda should junk them now and step back in time to redesign their motor.

    Good luck.
     
  9. white_335i

    white_335i New Member

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    Wow, that sucks man. Can you call Honda and ask for some goodwill warranty?
     
  10. fotodaddy

    fotodaddy New Member

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    Thanks for the support guys!

    Several constraints I have.....I am Nigeria in Africa.....bike was bought Brand Spanking New from a dealer in the UK. I had paid a deposit against it in January of 2010...the VFR1200FDD was released in mid July of 2010 and my bike was one of the first out of the dealer's door.

    Apparently, my warranty is only valid in the EU zone.

    However, my dealer, Doble in the UK, promised to see what could be done so I am hoping for the best.

    In the meantime, I was told that there was actually a safety recall on the VFR for "abnormal engine sound".......

    Safety Recall
    Engine Abnormal Noise
     
  11. Bryan88

    Bryan88 "Official" VFRWorld Greeter

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    Really sorry to hear about your problem and fully understand the constraints you have living in Africa. Is there a Honda dealership in Lagos? I would make a big noise though, this is not what one should expect from Honda's flagship model.
     
  12. Slash2

    Slash2 New Member

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    That sucks! And, suction is stronger than wisdom!
     
  13. Dangerous Dave

    Dangerous Dave New Member

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    I feel very bad for you my friend, but as someone else said, kudos to you for not being afraid to tear into it. I've been a Toyota Master Tech myself for almost 30 years now, but I still hate having to work on my own stuff. Looking at your pictures, it's clearly not an oil starvation issue as there's no blueing of the rod, crank journal, or bearings. Debris of some sort is the most likely culprit here. Could it be swarf as mentioned in the recall bulletin? Maybe, but doesn't really seem likely at this mileage. Assuming you've already done at least a couple oil changes by now, that stuff should have been long gone if it was ever there, but still a remote possibility. Don't be afraid to mention that if your bike is in the affected VIN range in the bulletin.

    So now what? You could try to get some goodwill assistance from Honda, but that's always a tough sell when all the maintenance has been performed by the owner and not a dealer. But as I always like to say, asking is still free. Since you're already this far into it, one would like to think you're capable of finishing the job, so you're really only looking for parts assistance. Will they give you a new engine? That would probably take a miracle in your particular situation. See if they'll either give you a crank, one rod (I assume no signs of the others having spun...all locating tabs still intact), and all the bearings. If they won't "give" them to you, maybe they'd absorb half the cost of parts?? It would be beneficial to you to at least take the rod caps and oil pan with you to a Honda dealer. Your digital pics would help as well. Then they can see it wasn't an oil starvation problem, which would generally be deemed owner neglect.

    I wish you the best of luck with this. Very unfortunate indeed. Please keep us posted.

    And to those who ask if this is what's to be expected from our VFRs...get real.
     
  14. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    Upon further review...Falicon isn't gonna do you much good in Africa and I have no suggestions who would. If still under warranty, pulling and disassembling the engine might end up being a deal breaker. Hope it works out for you.
     
  15. RustyBit

    RustyBit New Member

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    Ouch!! That hurts big time, feel for you. My 2 cents worth, there appears to be a lot more swarf in the sump than one would expect from ONE spun bearing, so I would go the swarf route. If the BIG H doesn't come to the party, publish it, may change their mind, just a thought publish it anyway, they deserve a kick up the arse for the way they are treating us over other issues anyway. Looking at the journal it appears as though it would only take a light clean with emery, and as long as you can get an oversize or possibly even standard bearing, platiguage it all plus the other usual things, flush, check oil pump, etc. and your away. BTW Honda don't and never have recommended FULL synthetic oils, so that may catch you out. Strangely enough can't find a big end diameter, little end no worries.


    Cheers Rusty
     
  16. Dangerous Dave

    Dangerous Dave New Member

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    Having worked for a large maufacturer for a LONG time, I can tell you that if he's not within the affected VIN range of the recall and he mentions the word "swarf", they will IMMEDIATELY write him off as a kook who puts too much stock in the internet and show him the door! If he's within the affected VIN range, they'll listen and maybe help. If he's NOT in the affected VIN range and DOESN'T mention the word swarf, they may still help.



    They'll just shrug it off. His VIN and attitude mean everything here.



    That journal looks too far gone for crocus cloth and a fresh bearing. There are no oversize bearings available from Honda, only select fit. It is bizarre though that they give no spec for rod journal diameter, only an oil clearance. Best bet is to mic the damaged one and also an undamaged one to see how much difference there is. You usually only get a few ten thousandths of an inch between select fit bearings...less than .001" between all the bearings. Awful lot of work to gamble that a fresh bearing and some crocus cloth will be a long-term fix. As far as the oil goes, they're not going to deny a warranty claim based on use of full synthetic oil. They have no shortage of reasons to deny this claim unfortunately, full synth oil is a non-issue. They're either going to help or they're not. I've worked very closely with Toyota factory engineers and claims reps for three decades. I know how they think and what they look for. The OP still has a chance here, he just has to approach it smart, not cocky. They don't *owe* him anything, but they may be willing to help if he remains civil throughout the process.
     
  17. RustyBit

    RustyBit New Member

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    It all depends on how long the process is going to be, it could drag on for a long time with no result. If my bike failed in 23k's I certainly would be feeling that they do OWE me, in fact it is law here that something that is expected to give "X" life and doesn't is still covered under statute laws. Even though they may try to get around this by claiming he didn't follow their guidelines re: oil etc.
    I too have many years in the auto industry from many angles, even down to a Honda bike mechanic for a local dealer in another era. If you blow up the image it appears to be only pickup on the journal, not gouging, which would fit given the condition of the bearing. I have cleaned up much worse than that and fitted select (blueprint) bearings with no problem. Honda Australia have denied many claims due to full synthetic oil, it is a way out for them. Even down to brake issues with NON Honda fluid. Things may be different in the states, probably are, I agree with you about the approach, though it's going to be a very difficult process having purchased in the UK and being in Africa. Knowing that the bike has a different ECU/ECM to ours, I wonder what the issue is with fuel in Africa??? How does it compare to EU fuels?? Could it be a factor?? Would be nice to the journal size to see if it is interchangeable with another model that may have different, aftermarket bearings made for it.
     
  18. Dangerous Dave

    Dangerous Dave New Member

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    That is very interesting! No, here in the states, out of warranty is out of warranty...period! Whether or not the manufacturer will help you with an out of warranty claim is handled on a case by case basis. I'm not quite sure how one would determine a life expectancy for a legal purpose like this one, but clearly different countries handle things different ways.



    Likewise, I was a bike mechanic at a Kaw/Suz dealer in the early '80s. I've looked at the pics several times now. It's very hard to tell from the pics whether it's bearing material stuck to the journal or gouges down in it, although you could be right. But the other thing that catches my attention is the fact that the bearings were being pounded out the sides. What used to be a flat bearing now wraps around the rod, so some damage has probably occurred to the thrust surfaces of that journal as well. You can see how rounded the edges of the journal are out towards the thrust surfaces. Sounds like we've both had to build a few motors with less than perfect parts. But you're right, if Honda isn't willing to offer assistance and it were my motor, I'd spend a little time trying to see how salvageable everything was. So yes, emery or crocus cloth on the journal first, then check it with a micrometer against an undamaged one. If it's not under by more than .001", he might have a chance with it. Hopefully we can agree that it should have a new rod. Yes, you could recondition that one, but on a bike motor I think it would cause a lot of imbalance and vibration compared to a car motor where the rods are typically heavier to start with. New rod, thickest bearing available, plastigage for oil clearance, and feeler gauge for thrust clearance, then see what ya got.



    Here in the states we have something called the "Magnuson-Moss Act". It's printed in every warranty manual in the country and states that a manufacturer cannot deny a claim for using any non-factory parts unless it can be proven that they directly resulted in the failure. But as we've both said, they have no shortage of excuses to deny the claim if they really want to...unfortunately.



    I'm truly surprised it's not given in the service manual, but I checked it myself and you're right, it's definitely not there. He'll just have to mic a good one (or two) to know what it's supposed to be.
     
  19. RustyBit

    RustyBit New Member

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    Glad to see that we do on the whole, agree, would be interesting to swap more stories. Honda here will argue a pwr steering failure if you do't USE THEIR FLUID. Looking at the good one next to it IMHO I think it is fine, even the edge of the rod end chamfers look fine, though the bearings shells (now skins) have really taken a hammering, so thin now. Personally I think it started quite a bit earlier than even the 1000k trip. Even at 5750rpm (150kph) for a short distance it would take more than that to pound the bearing like that. One good thing is that Honda still have 6 bearing choices allowing almost a blueprint build.

    Cheers Rusty
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
  20. Dangerous Dave

    Dangerous Dave New Member

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    I see you caught that they are NOT in fact thrust bearings (email notification showed your unedited reply), they just got beaten into that shape. That kind of damage happens quickly once the bearings spin. Those select fit bearings probably span less than .001" total difference across the range, so again only time and trial will tell.
     
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