Winglets on GP bikes

Discussion in 'Racing & Track Days' started by nozzle, Jan 28, 2011.

  1. nozzle

    nozzle New Member

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  2. vfourbear

    vfourbear New Member

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    I suppose its true, there is nothing new under the sun...........
     
  3. 02 VFR Rider

    02 VFR Rider New Member

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    they sure do, now the ? is what are they for?
    some say downforce and others say to help with moving airflowfor better cooling
     
  4. hondarv4

    hondarv4 New Member

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    It's for more downforce on the front wheel, in the braking zone, and more stability on the straights, it's a big Q if it really helps, most likely it will steal a 2-4 mph on the top speed.
     
  5. 02 VFR Rider

    02 VFR Rider New Member

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    I would say what ever they are using them for, they do work.
    They would be off the bike if they did not.
    I wish I can find the page where I read they helped pull air from the radiator side cut outs and not for downforce.
     
  6. hondarv4

    hondarv4 New Member

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    MotoGp bikes do generate a lot of heat, and different solutions have been tried, but the winglets are added to the Ducati on one sole purpose, to keep the front wheel as much as possible on the tarmac.
    Same reason why Suzuki did it on the RGB 500 in the 80'ties. on the later twostrokes from Suzuki, they were gone! Honda never even tried it, Yamaha tried, but couldn't make it work. went back to a sleek design , and moving the engine more forward, witch works for every bike, balance!
     
  7. Echo3Niner

    Echo3Niner New Member

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    http://motomatters.com/ had a very analytical article reviewing the use of the winglets on the GP11; based on race engineer and other physics based analysis, that the winglets were ONLY for cooling. Due to wind speed and wing size, there is no benefit of downforce except at high speed, which is not when you need the force. The winglet creates a low pressure zone outside the side cooling vents, pulling hot air out of the fairing.
     
  8. vfourbear

    vfourbear New Member

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    If I remember right, that analysis was still speculating, since Ducati won't talk about what they are for. Correct me if Im wrong since Im too lazy to go look. But it was a reasonable speculation. I have no idea what they were doing on the bike in Nozzle's pic. BTW, I see you posting over there on the Kropotkin site Noz hehehehee
     
  9. mountainmotor

    mountainmotor New Member

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    Yep . Rossi is struggling with strength after surgery so yesterday he said the wings were to be removed for awhile . They were causing him to exert too much effort when changing directions.

    BTW, Good notes there on racing in the GP500 days .
     
  10. Echo3Niner

    Echo3Niner New Member

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    Change of direction and "keeping the front wheel down" are two very different things. Anti-wheelie electronics keep the front wheel down; additional downforce has been speculated primarily due to lack of "feel" in the front wheel and difficulty getting heat into the front tire.

    Rossi said due to his lack of shoulder strength, they used the non-winglet fairing, and that he liked it better anyway; he was speaking about change of direction, and shoulder pain when changing direction. That does not rule out the heating use of the winglets, nor confirm the downforce.

    I think it is still open for debate, and I also suspect it is not purely one or the other, but perhaps some combination. In most cases, race engineers would try to kill as many birds as they could...
     
  11. vfourbear

    vfourbear New Member

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    With the possible exception of Nori at Phillip Island.

    Im sure if he never saw another bird it would be too soon for him.
     
  12. Echo3Niner

    Echo3Niner New Member

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    True dat! :smile:
     
  13. hondarv4

    hondarv4 New Member

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    I have problems by changing direction when the bike is wheeling, specially the stroker! coming out of the bend. I don't know how many races you have seen, But I have seen some races MotoGP and 500 class races since 70 'ies, and been riding motorcycles for 45 years. And the wheelie electronic on the Ducati, allowes the bike to lift the front wheel about 10 cm by acceleration, the Ducati problem is going in to the bends , both Stoner and Hayden chrashed several times (17 each) going into the bend. Electronic can't fix everything!
     
  14. hondarv4

    hondarv4 New Member

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    The latest pictures of the Ducati shows no more winglets
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Echo3Niner

    Echo3Niner New Member

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    They have two fairings, one with, one without, and will use whichever either rider wants, for each track.

    http://www.motomatters.com/news/2011/02/02/2011_motogp_sepang_1_day_2_roundup.html

    "Rossi also revealed an interesting detail on those winglets. The Italian had been testing aerodynamics all day, and told the press that he much preferred the fairing without the winglets. The winglet version, he said, required significantly more force to turn in than the plain fairing, pushing the effort required well above his pain threshold. Unless the winglets really do provide more cooling (or in the official version, provide more stability at high speed), they could disappear at a lot of tracks this year."

    Still not clear what they are for with this note. The original article I noted was:

    http://www.motomatters.com/opinion/2010/08/02/those_ducati_winglets_what_are_they_real.html

    Additionally, the comparisson pics I mentioned earlier as well (at the bottom):

    http://motomatters.com/news/2011/01/13/the_2011_ducati_desmosedici_gp11_motogp_.html
     
  16. Scudrunr

    Scudrunr New Member

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    The curious part about those fins is their location. They are SMACK DAB in the middle of a cooling vent on both examples posted. Just coincidence? no. It appears that there would be a variety of locations better suited and cleaner for a down-force generating wing elsewhere on the fairing.

    Rather I believe that this device would better fit into the Vortex Generator (VG) category and be used to energize the air forward of a cooling inlet or outlet to help in extraction of hot air. Without even seeing the comments here I said, "cooling”. I have seen devices like this before on aircraft to serve similar purposes.

    Here is an example of an aircraft with 2 VGs ahead of a NACA air inlet. Sorry the pic is poor
    image1510.jpg
    The fairing can be designed to produce as much down force as a manufacturer wants. Why would they resort to wings? Plus the mere function of them would only be useful at very high speeds due to their small size.

    Do these fins cool, yes
    Do they affect steering, slightly?
     
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