Considerations for a Catless Header

Discussion in 'Mechanics Garage' started by BASFjon, Feb 22, 2009.

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  1. BASFjon

    BASFjon New Member

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    In rebuttal to the following thread, NorcalBoy approached me personally (in a matter to which I'd rather not express) and indicated I was a bit harsh to a rep Steve Larson of Motad/Annitori Distributing. I think I stepped on their combined efforts by offering information that to them was off-topic, but was rather on-topic in consideration of $600 being too much for the gain/performance of the Motad Header System. I simply suggested an alternative - and disgussed what isn't known about the system and offered support as to why it was such a good system. I guess that is slander to some people on this board. Personally I don't care. This is a collaboration between the members to report and help others on products and information we come across. Point-and-case, I am removing the content of the post and placing it here.

    http://vfrworld.com/forums/modifications/20712-motad-ss-headers-worth-600-a.html

    =======================================================


    I think it should be in the interest of the members on this board the Motad headers have a different flow entirely, in comparison to the stock headers in that - two of the pipes are reversed! This means a completely different exhaust scavenging scheme - and acceleration/idle characteristics. Though the effects may not be that noticeable or large enough to notice by some owners - there are basic differences that have been reported from several owners. The largest being the 3mpg or so drop in fuel mileage. And secondly the better acceleration and liveliness of the motor. The common statement of "this is what this motor should have had all along".

    You may have never heard of this before - but it's plenty obvious. I can show it to you in the picture below.

    [​IMG]

    Notice the Pipes on the Right of the Silver Motad Headers are reversed!

    I have this same system on my '07. What I noticed in the Motad System is that I dropped about 3 mpg, and it felt as if the headers supported acceleration more then sustaining engine speed - which is why I think the mpg dropped. It felt like I had a slightly bit more throttle open at cruising speeds around town 35-45. But the acceleration was so much more thrilling. I didn't feel like the VFR was trying hardly at all when I cranked on the throttle. It just went freely. It matches the personality of the motor much better and the feel is more natural. The Motad Headers are a step in the right direction.

    At the time I had a PCIII, Motad SS Catback, K&N Filter, and O2 Bypass.



    ========================================================

    In regards to the 5th gen Factory Headers

    The 5th Factory Headers are stainless from the factory...except the rear two pieces - these aren't and will rust. This is what I have been told. I have not personally laid my eyes on this - but it's shared information. However, there is one thing I noticed, and though I never conformed it, ...but it looks like these two rear pipes are interchangeable with the 6th Gen rear two pipes (same appearance) - and this might make the OEM version affordable.

    ========================================================


    OEM Catted Header Information

    Since a lot of the weight is in the cat, cutting it out and replacing it with premade elbows and a Y-section would save a lot of weight. I know this because I gutted one of the original factory headers I had - the cat is a twin chamber heavy SOB. I removed the entire cat honeycomb section - including the outer shell it is mounted in - which made a big echo chamber and screwed up the flow (my personal observation). If you do choose to gut the cat, punch out the honeycomb and leave the shell in there - it will sustain the flow better.

    However straightpiping the cat requires a Y-section of piping and a 90-degree elbow cut at a lesser degree and welded in series to the Y, and then the Y at the inlet side, and then the output tube section that was originally cut ott - best fitment, and only I think a matter of 2 inches worth if memory serves. It requires a very carefully mounted set of jigs at a shop that does race headers - otherwise it is illegal, and nobody will even want to touch it nowadays (unless you can do it yourself or know someone). All that work and bother is why I chose a Motad over straightpiping the cat. But you can do a search on google for premade Stainless Steel Y Pipes and you will find afforable sources.

    Exhaust Components - SPD Home Page B has the Y-pipe and elbows.

    Secondly, you don't exactly know where the proper merge point fo the final 2-1 section is going to flow the best. You might end up with a better low-end or high end depending on the fore-aft placement of the Y-section, and the steepness of the merging angles at the Y yields a proportional performance gains in varying rpm bands. It might affect it a small amount or a large amount - that unknown is another reason why I chose just buying the Motad. And honestly, I chose to not guess at all. However, I will add, and only because I like to help those that want to venture and get into this stuff, that if you did do this, it would be best to get measurements of the motad up close and mimic it the placement and angle of the Y-section (apologies to Motad).

    On the Motad I purchased, I liked the quality, except they didn't paint the rear tubes all too well - but they are out of site and I didn't mind. Everything else was good work considering the shaping, bends and routing, and expecially the individual flange seat angles at the head - they all worked out well.

    ========================================================

    The Attack

    see:
    http://vfrworld.com/forums/modifications/20712-motad-ss-headers-worth-600-a.html

    - understand for under $100 easy, you can bypass the cat and make the factory system much more economical and performance minded without taking a hit in mpg like the Motad - granted it may not accelerate nearly as fast - but it would be close. The simple fact is, the thread was titled "Motad SS headers worth $600 ?" and the poor guy was simply asking: "If the motad system is an improvement over stock I dont mind shelling out the extra coin but on the other hand I dont want to waste mony that coud be spent elsewhere either."

    The simple answer is it is - my point was that you could save that extra money and put it towards others things being that it might take you $100 or so in parts and labor at a machine shop to bypass the cat with the near performance of a Motad System.

    Other people on this site are simply very set on spending large amounts of money to perform dyno comparisons which only show horsepower, not acceleration or translate the feel of the torque or any flat-spots. The simple fact is - this is a replacement header!! This is a replacement header, replacement header replacement header. That's it. And it was designed a bit differently to give some more performance with a sliver of sacrifice to mpg - that's all. It's worth it. But $600 is a lot for someone on a budget.

    My case-and-point: On-topic. You guys were way off!



    Steve Larson from Annitori Distributing stated:

    "Lastly, I have to say that part of my job is to watch and respond on forum boards across the spectrum, and the VFR sites are some of the most pleasant places to converse and exchange information. It is rare on most forums that a thread goes more then a few responses without some jerk being a "you know what" for whatever personal motivation, or the thread being hijacked into some inane conversation.

    You guys are intelligent and pleasant to exchange with, keep the dopes off your site!"

    http://vfrworld.com/forums/modifications/20712-motad-ss-headers-worth-600-a.html

    ...personally that was slander and this guy is a company representative, and I bought his product. ??? Should I forward this to Annitori?



    My Reponse:

    "Steve, I honestly don't like you. And I'll be straightforward some more. The thread post topic, "Motad SS headers worth $600 ?", is on-topic. And furthermore - Exhaust Components - SPD Home Page B has the Y-pipe and elbows.

    Lets do some logic here too since sincerity is such a rouse of late per this topic. ...actually lets's not. I'll be nice. I could really put this straight to everyone and damage some of your possible sales - BUT I have a Motad System and I myself like it. It's a good following. I understand your in the mode of Damage Repair in it's fullest. But I will give other owners out there an option in a time of financial crisis to look at other affordable opportunities.

    Cheers :wink:"


    NorcalBoy's PM Slander:

    ... I just want to say to NorcalBoy - your Dyno Charts will not show that much in yield hp or torque to substantiate ignorant. This motor does not make large amounts of power or huge improvements in flow! Even Steve stated this.


    My Reponse:

    I'll remove it. You may want to consider the simple prospect that these headers are being sold under a premise of something that simple isn't true. And I don't like a rep whom attacks prior customer for being off topic - for the obvious reason that I am compromising his sales.. I don't care for him - simple and to the point. Steve Larson did not approach this properly - and that disgusts me. Read it again.

    Honestly you may want to consider harbouring people like me and giving me an addy because if it weren't for people like me - you would simply be throwing your money to the wind. I care, therefore I am.

    It would have been nice to meet you under other circumstances I am sure, but I am thankful for your concern and discrete delivery.

    - Jon


    ... I hope others learn from this in more then just the technical aspects. And I am a bit sarcastic when it is obvious others are being misled. I don't care for the disruptive and discerning!
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2009
  2. BASFjon

    BASFjon New Member

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    Here is the breakdown from my understanding. And this is so stupid.

    If your headers are old and rusted or broken - you are going to pay more for factory replacements - but you can have more performance for less than the factory cost of a replacement with motads. However you will need a PCIII and a set of O2 Plugs and a cheap pack of resistors to do the resisitor bypass. This yields you a higher cost then factory. This is saying all 3 parts of the OEM headers have rusted through. And you may be able to weld up cracks nad what have you.

    Now, if you want more performance - you could spend say $500 less and go with buying the parts and having the header welded up with someone that can do a good job - and use that money for the PCIII and what-have-you, and end up with a bit, and I do mean bit, ...bit less performance, but you won't lose 3 mpg in gas mileage if that is a concern to you. To me I could care less when bikes like these get the mileage they do - it's a ridiculous point. Penny pinching.

    Now I had the money for a Motad - so I did it. Others may not - so they may opt to buying a spare factory header from some guy who bought a motad - and simply do the cheap mod.

    Funny thing is...a guy who takes the $500 and buys some rear-end gears, guts the OEM exhaust baffles and picks up a K&N with his PCIII, plugs and bypass is gonna run a hell of a lot faster then the guy with the Motad.

    So in that, I am done addressing this stupid topic. Newbies and prospectives, do your research. Those that claim more power - post dynos.
    - End of topic.
     
  3. Action

    Action New Member

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    BASFjon,
    I also thought your response was out of line. I don't see how Steve's comments were aimed at you, although you made it kind of a self fulfilling prophesy with your response. The product his company distributes may be expensive, but it seems to be well made, and is one of the only companies to provide a VFR header. From every account I've read about Annitori Distributing seems to be a respectable company and Steve seem to be an honest guy.

    Action
     
  4. MtnRider

    MtnRider New Member

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    I too must agree with Action and NorcalBoy (who I actually know) and say you were out of line. Your inital post had decent info based upon your opinion then you became a punk for no reason.

    Yes this post and the last had some well though out and written information but again the price is actually considerabally less than $600 as you state.

    I find it entertaining that you have these on your bike yet almost express regret. Counseling is another option you should consider.
     
  5. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    I obviously struck a nerve there Jon, nice opinion piece by the way, but you forgot to attach the data..... I chose to delete your pm without reading it and to try to forget that I ever got into a social altercation with a person of your caliber. Thank you for posting my pm here so that I can learn to better control my need to vehemently protect people like Steve Larson, that have treated me with respect and taken care of me. It's a small world out there, Jon, and you are only as good as the people you have around you, which in your case is most likely yourself. Good luck in the future, you're gonna need it. Peace.
     
  6. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    MtnRider, I sincerely apologize that you had to admit that in the open forum. :redface:
     
  7. SLOVFR

    SLOVFR Member

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    Well unless there has been something deleted that I have not read I don't know what all the attack against Jon is? Everyone has opinions and Jon was just stating his and his own experience. Ill be the first to leave this place if it gets even close to other VFR site to which one cannot express their own opinions. Funny how we choose our battles over materialistic pieces of steal. I choose to accept the fact that this is an open forum for views to be expressed on topics that are relevant to each forum. If you don't like the opinion that is given then dont take the advise and for goodness sake don't take it personally. I saw a few members here out right attack people with verbal abuse and still managed to continue to post until it gets to a no turn around point.

    I will just say that we all should remember we are all motorcycle riders and first and foremost human beings. We can state if we do or don't like material things but that does not make anyone a bad person or the need for others to feel any emotional response because of it.

    I hope we can continue on this site as we grow to keep focused on what really matters, people are people, things are just things.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2009
  8. reg71

    reg71 Poser Staff Member

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    I am not quite sure what all the hullabaloo is over, but I just wanted to put in a plug for spellcheck. you non-spelling mo-fos should look into it.

    p.s. when you are done with that, check yo grammar mofo!


    :biggrin:


    :ninja:
     
  9. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

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    I'm glad to see you're paying attention :thumbsup: thanks for your input.
     
  10. BASFjon

    BASFjon New Member

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    I think this whole ordeal was and is still disgusting.

    I am waiting on NorcalBoy's Dyno results. I hope they're honest. For arguments sake and to be perfectly rational about his mission - I think sometone should send Norcalboy an OEM header from a 5th gen (the OEM Header that can be installed on the 6th gen that lacks a Cat) just to show the comparison between a factory catless and the Motad. I don't think your going to see a very large difference in the dyno's (Motad versus Catted). And the difference between the Non-Cat and Motad is probably going to be very small. A Catted header normally has smaller primaries to quicken the pace through the converter and the motor is designed for more displacement to overcome the CFM bottleneck at the Cat - which is what Honda did when they went to the 6th gen - increase the bore which displaces more CFM, and decrease the stroke - it doesn't increase in CC's, but larger bore engines act like larger CC motors and make more top-end power. Now with the Motad, it's more in the acceleration and feel and mpg - which is what the entire posting I placed was about. It's not about HP and Dyno's. There's more to a motor then numbers. In fact most race motors specifically make less peak horsepower - and are designed and engineered for similar reasons along these lines (acceleration, usable torque, etc).

    Action - [edited the section on the merge area and quality of the header - after looking over the merge areas, I can honestly say that my initial impression from months back was not the correct one - the header appears to be built well - my only gripe is the thin metal, but the again, weight savings and maybe a thicker gauge Stainless is not needed]. I think part of the problem here simply is, you get these other complete exhaust systems for these other high-end sportbikes that are built so much better and cost so much more - and annitori ends up working a niche market due to the availability for headers on this non-performance orientated VFR. And I say this because there are no big gainers on this bike. All your doing is opening up the breathing on this bike because Honda made it this way purposesly for torque and to make it as seemless and economical as possible. It's a two-up sport-bike that can go "some" distance comfortably, yet still be fast - but in no way are they going to have it compete with an RR - trust me on this!! You think you're making all lot of power from these mods - but your not! You're just uncorking it! You can do this for much less. It's all over this board. The difference is - how will it sound, the name behind the product, and paying a lot more for a marginal gain (over modifying the stock one). Personally I love the sound of my Micron and Motad - the combination is mean sounding with a sharp snarl. It's very unique. But that won't matter to a lot of owners out here pressed to a dollar, because, like a lot of other aspects, they just want affordable performance and a little more out of the bike. [added the following] Even after reading this, $645 I beleive (cannot seem to find the receipt) was the price I paid for the header - that is a lot! The price we pay for exhaust systems on a Motorcycle are just outlandish - and I would say $450-500 would be worth the while for a Honda VFR - especially when you consider it is hidden for the most part. I would hope Motad could open here in the United States and produce there products here to keep the costs down if importing them is what pushes the prices so high).

    Another point to be made - and that is why no matter how many times you ask Annitori this, they will call it a replacement header - not a performance header. I can't keep saying this enough! It's not even made like a performance header would be - and if they said so, take it to any shop without telling them what it is, and they'll let you know what they think.

    Steve - The next time you make use of the word "jerk" or "dope" again, vague or not - I'm going to ask that your posting priviledges be suspended [ this is a bit harsh, but I don't care for this one bit]. Everyone here, but the ignorant, knows what was being said. And this behaviour is not wanted what-so-ever on this site. I am a customer of yours - remember that. And I am entitled to my opinions and experience in this matter. My recommendations are better founded then yours simply because I have tried various combinations, and I'm an owner - not the salesman. I know you have a mission here. I'm sure your sales are dropping off sharply. I do feel bad for the pinch everyone is being placed in - however I'd like to see owners keeping their bikes because they can afford their payments rather then spending large amounts of money on single modifications. If they did all the mods cheaply - they would actually yield a lot more content out of their VFR's because these modification add to eachother. Single Modifications tend to cause gains here, but losses there - or won't show gains till others mods are performed - trust me, been there. And this bike was backwards engineered by Honda to keep it from being updated. If any owners want to start a good thread argue that one. In effect, we're bettering it for the feel, manners and performance - but losing some efficiency and bypassing emmissions.

    Now I am going to close and no longer respond to this thread or the prior, simply because the more I talk about it, the more I am waisting my time on words already said.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2009
  11. SteveLarson

    SteveLarson New Member

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    Whoa, whoa and WHOA....

    You are taking something VERY wrong here, because there was, and is, NOTHING in my post that was aimed at you or anyone else on this forum!

    My post was an actual "kudos" to ALL of you on this forum, yourself included, for what was a very intelligent discussion of the MANY ways to skin a cat. Pun intended!

    Yeah, the post about redoing the pipes was a bit of a hijack, but nothing brually offensive. My only comment at all about your posting would be to make sure everyone is aware and kind enough to NOT copy another companies product. Motad spent a lot of time and money designing these and have to feed their families too. We all "bitch" about how "country X" is stealing our jobs, so let's not do the same thing to anyone else... Not to mention there are intellectual property rights in here somewhere... :smile:

    And I did not in any way find your post "degrading" to the Motad product, so please do not misinterpret my posting as anything else.

    I have absolutely no issues with you or anyone else on this board. A few "mofo's" on other boards I want to find going at speed into Turn 5 (which I never will because I don't think any of these "jerks" actually even ride!) at Road America someday, but nobody here. They were my reference in the "jerks" comment, 1 millioin times sorry if it was mis-interpreted up here.

    Please accept my apoligies for any part I played in this getting so "out of hand", I truly meant nothing to anyone up here, yourself included...
     
  12. mello dude

    mello dude Member

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    Film at 11:00....

    MD
     
  13. MtnRider

    MtnRider New Member

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    Well this has gotten a bit out of hand....personally I never thought of the headers as a performance upgrade but a simple replacement w/o a cat. Considering I have worn a hold in the mid-pipe I need a new header and thus I was looking into these.

    Enough banter let's get out and ride.
     
  14. WhiteKnight

    WhiteKnight Well-Known Member

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    I think there has been some misunderstanding along the way. However, as a precaution, I will lock this thread to prevent a possible escalation of further misunderstanding. Each side has valid points and from the two threads I went and caught up on, including this one, I can see no attack by Steve, only, as he puts it, a kudos to our intelligence and ability to keep from falling into disarray in threads, as happens on other forums. Maybe BASFjon just misunderstood what was typed, maybe he took the use of a few words, which IMO described other forums, personally. I am not him and cannot speak for him.

    To quote MtnRider, Let's get out and ride (when the weather warms up, though).
     
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