Help fund the VFR header

Discussion in 'General VFR Discussions' started by RVFR, Jan 24, 2017.

  1. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,723
    Likes Received:
    260
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Desert Southwest
    Map
    The displacement certainly didn't hurt it. I would never build a street engine at 13:1 compression, because you can't safely run it with pump gas and have to use race fuel. 12.5:1 is the maximum for safe use of pump gas and it's easy to accomplish with just minor clipping of the head and running thinner gaskets, and you don't need to worry about detonation. The piston dome and combustion chamber shape are also important considerations.
     
  2. CandyRedRC46

    CandyRedRC46 Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,503
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Orlando Florida
    Map
    That and dynamic compression are a huge factor. Most new super bikes and super sports are at, at least 13:1 static compression right now.

    I don't know if 13:1 was Highsidenz's final figure or if that was before he reshaped the valve reliefs and balanced the weights, but it was definitely up there.

    Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  3. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,723
    Likes Received:
    260
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Desert Southwest
    Map
    Standard rule of thumb is max 8.25-8.50 for DCR on pump gas.

    I found this paper awhile back and thought it did a great job explaining things:

    http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html
     
  4. RVFR

    RVFR Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2006
    Messages:
    7,983
    Likes Received:
    229
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    Olympia Wa.
    Map
    Just for shiets and giggles, I called Honda up on availability of the stock 98-99 header. Seems as though they are in the pipe , haha, being made for Honda by an outfit called Vintage parts Inc. SMH. Anyway those have a list price of $712.00 just in case curious minds want to know.

    I have a call into Ricci haven't heard back yet. But I did line up a 99 VFR that has a KN and the same PC3 with a 2bro can, so it's looking like the second week of June we'll be doing a comparison tune run of both vfrs on another dyno. This should be interestingly fun.
     
  5. duccmann

    duccmann Insider

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    8,719
    Likes Received:
    621
    Trophy Points:
    143
    Location:
    SoCal
    Map
    I was wondering if they were going to bring it by still---


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  6. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    15,047
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    48
    There ain't no substitute for pesos either.
     
  7. Voided76

    Voided76 New Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Messages:
    249
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Jacksonville, NC
    Map
    I threw down 50 bones to see where it goes.

    I now own an 8th gen but I was a part of every step of the old header threads, unfortunately.
     
  8. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Vista, CA
    Map
    Peppy is an understatement when it comes to RVFR's 5th gen - I rode it.



    I was lucky enough to hang with RVFR [Jay] for a bit last week while I was in WA for a few days of Califonia Superbike School at a local track called The Ridge. Way, way too many adventures took place around this trip to list here, so I'll save details about the riding and VFR-surgery for other threads.



    While out on a ride through the beautiful country in his neck of the nape, Jay was gracious and trusting enough to trade bikes with me for 20 or so miles of sweeping turns through a rural area. His 5th gen let me know it was getting down to business from 5000rpm to 6000rpm, then at 6000rpm, twisting the throttle became directly proportional to acceleration - this motorcycle ripped on demand from 6000-10000 rpm. I didn't go over 10000 because manners dictate that one ought not wring out a friend's bike when generously proffered, plus, there was nothing to prove and I was already having plenty of fun. When on the gas, Jay's 5th gen was way more exhilarating than any VFR I've ridden. Jay is spot on when he describes his motorcycle having improved driveablility, but calling his bike 'driveable' is like saying a BMW S1000RR is 'brisk'. When debriefing after trading back to our respective bikes, I used the word 'harmonized' to describe Jay's motorcycle. My 5th gen gets going just fine, thank you, I've no complaints, but compared to mine, Jay's adds more than a little snarling, leaping acceleration to the equation. For those who haven't read this entire thread and those who won't, he is running a relatively obscure large aperture K&N air filter, a high mount Staintune slipon, and Two Brothers Racing headers on a stock engine with a Power Commander III that has been dyno tuned to 112hp.



    A bit of context: I owned a 1998 5th gen VFR 800 with a Two Brothers slipon for two years in 1998-1999. I've owned a 4th gen VFR 750 for two years and left it bone stock. I've owned two different 6th gen VFRs, and I've put 14000 miles on my current bike, a 2001 5th gen I bought a year ago with 32000 miles on it. This current 5th gen has a Pipercross air filter, catless ceramic coated 1998/1999 headers, a high mount Staintune slipon, and a Power Commander III that has been dyno tuned to a whopping 99hp with very smooth, linear power and torque curves.



    I am very optimistic about the headers Jay and Gabe are developing for the VFR 800.



    Cheers all.
     
    CandyRedRC46 and RVFR like this.
  9. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    15,047
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    48

    So how much is he asking for his old bike? Sounds like a deal is in the works.
     
  10. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Vista, CA
    Map
    Ha! I offered a number of enticements on top of a trade for my bike. He was unwavering. Now, if the 'donor bike' - a 5th gen, same year as his, same mileage, stock exhaust and intake, to be dynoed as baseline - pulls better than his, we'll all have to rethink.
     
  11. Badbilly

    Badbilly Official VFRWorld Troll Of The Year!

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    15,047
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ten K will get you the pink slip to the MACH ONE 91 holder of several LSR for trips to Wal*Mart at breathtaking velocities. Any offer of enticements will of course have to be vetted for moral content.
     
  12. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Vista, CA
    Map
    Thread update - we are not requesting donations or contributions.

    Most of the actions described in this post has been happening on our sister VFR site, but these developments will be of benefit to many VFR owners, so we're posting here as well.

    NEW THREAD FOR THESE HEADERS IS HERE:
    https://vfrworld.com/threads/new-5t...r-now-in-production-in-usa.56300/#post-595683

    PART 1 OF POST - PART 2 IS IN FOLLOWING POST
    [Site machinery requires this be a two part post]

    More good news, gentlemen. In addition to the exciting BW/Lextek/Alibaba exhaust header offering, we have a new header to add to the mix, and it's a bona fide performance header at that.

    A pre-production prototype header assembly with specifications nearly identical to the Two Brothers Racing [TBR] 5th gen VFR 800 header is being constructed in southern California. (See list of the differences between the new header and TBR below)

    Here is photographic evidence of the work in progress. This is a photo of the jig that has been fabricated in order to obtain the proper layout of the performance headers. Photos taken 12/26/2018:
    upload_2018-12-28_22-22-34.jpeg
    upload_2018-12-28_22-39-49.jpeg



    *Acknowledgements:

    From the start of this project, we knew we'd need help, and so sought assistance from some very well respected and long time VFR enthusiasts.

    Special thanks to VFRW/VFRD member Cornercarver for the generous and trusting loan of his prized, irreplaceable [Until now!] set of original TBR headers.

    We also would like to thank VFRW/VFRD member RVFR for his support of this effort through contributions from the 2017 gofundme header fund.

    Contributing members - all massively experienced and extremely helpful - include but are not limited to: Cornercarver, TimmytheCop, MiniCarver, BusyLittleShop, BuzznerSuntrusts, RVFR, Mohawk, Mello Dude, CandyRedRC46, Stray, keef, and 3dcycle. Our sincere thanks to all these individuals and others for their wise counsel. Without you, we could neither be getting a prototype built, nor could we have established a path to a production version of this performance header.



    *General information / major bullet points:

    [1] The production version of the performance header assembly described here will be hand built in southern California and cost $760.00 plus shipping from the manufacturer. California residents need to add 7.75% state sales tax.

    [2] The header will fit 5th and 6th gen VFR800s. [8th gen owners, see Note 'a' below]

    [3] The header will go into production when orders for 15 units are received with a $200 deposit per unit.

    [4] The prototype header is scheduled to be completed by 1/11/2019.

    [5] A baseline dyno run of a VFR fitted with 98/99 headers and same day/same dyno full tune of the same VFR with prototype header installed is scheduled for the week of 1/14/2019. [Dyno testing methodology is detailed under 'Dyno testing procedure']

    [6] We will be generating and updating a list of individuals interested in purchasing a replica of the TBR header as described here.

    If you are interested, PM us and let us know the following:
    a] which gen VFR [5th, 6th, or 8th] you would like a header for
    b] which fueling management system you use or intend to use
    c] which slipon you have or will use
    d] if more than one unit, how many headers you are interested in purchasing
    e] if you are placing a deposit

    UPDATED LIST OF PEOPLE INTERESTED AND DEPOSITS RECEIVED KEPT HERE:
    https://vfrworld.com/threads/new-5t...r-now-in-production-in-usa.56300/#post-595683



    *Background:

    Over the past year, VFRW/VFRD member OOTV and I have made an exhaustive [ouch!] search for a manufacturer/fabricator qualified and willing to produce a reasonably-priced, high quality "replica" of the Two Brothers Racing 5th gen header assembly. The TBR is the accepted standard in production VFR performance exhaust systems. After unproductive efforts with several fabricators, in August of this year we were referred to and contacted a gentleman named Wade, founder of an established southern California exhaust manufacturing firm. Wade expressed interest in taking on this project. Communications about and development of this project have continued with Wade since August and resulted in the construction of the fixture pictured above, along with a pre-production prototype header, a dyno testing schedule, and a commitment to build a production run of 15 units.



    *Dyno testing procedure:

    Testing will consist of a baseline dyno run of a 5th gen VFR with OEM 98/99 headers installed [See Note b below]. After the baseline run, the test VFR's 98/99 headers will be removed and replaced with the prototype performance header assembly. On the same day as the baseline run, a full dyno tune will be performed on the subject VFR with performance header installed. The dyno tune will be performed on the same dyno by the same dyno technician, with the same air filter, same fuel management system, and same midpipe/muffler.
    [Test subject VFR is described in 'Test bike']



    *Some dimensions, features, and specifications of the header will be taken from the TBR.
    The new header will incorporate the following specifications from the original TBR header design:
    -header construction will be from 18 gauge 304 stainless steel tubing, [0.049"/1.24mm wall thickness]
    -header will have 38mm od primary tubes [1.5" od]
    -header will have 41.5mm od secondary tubes [1 5/8" od]
    -header will have 51mm od collector tubing [2" od]
    -header's rear primary tube junctions will be fastened by spring tension fittings
    -header's left front and left rear primary tubes will merge
    -header's right front and right rear primary tubes will merge
    -header will have no crossover of front or rear primary tubes
    -header's collector exit tube will have a 51mm od [See Note c below]
    -header's tubing will be mandrel bent



    *Some specifications will be changed from original TBR header design.
    To align with the VFR community's objectives and improve durability, the header will incorporate the following changes to the original TBR header design:
    -header's collector exit pipe will be modified to match position and angle of OEM collector exit pipe
    -midpipe/muffler/clamp to be supplied by customer [See Note c below]
    -midpipe/muffler to be fastened to header collector exit pipe by clamp
    [Clamp not supplied with header]
    -header will have two O2 sensor bosses at 2000-2009 OEM header's O2 sensor locations: one O2 sensor boss on secondary tube after left front/left rear primary merge, one O2 sensor boss on secondary tube after right front/right rear primary merge
    -right rear primary tube of all headers will be mandrel bent to provide 1/16" clearance from rear head cam chain tensioner when installed on 6th gen VFRs
    -header's stud nut tension flanges will be 1/4" thick stainless steel [See Note d below]
    -header's collars at head end of primary tubes will be reinforced and length adjusted for 1/4" head stud fixing flanges
    -header's internal flow surfaces at head end collar joints of primary tubes will be finished smooth/flush [See Note e below]



    *Wade's credentials:
    Wade designed and built exhausts for Kerker Exhaust Systems from 1980-1988. Since founding his own exhaust fabrication business in 1989, he has produced custom, prototype, and production exhaust systems and components for numerous individuals and manufacturers, including Two Brothers Racing. He builds a production aftermarket full exhaust system for a current non-Honda V4-powered motorcycle. Here are two of his current projects. Photos taken 12/27/2018 and 12/28/2018 :
    upload_2018-12-28_22-43-48.jpeg upload_2018-12-28_22-46-51.jpeg
    upload_2018-12-28_22-44-56.jpeg upload_2018-12-28_22-48-53.jpeg
    upload_2018-12-28_22-48-4.jpeg upload_2018-12-28_22-49-27.jpeg


    PART 2 IN NEXT POST
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
    RVFR likes this.
  13. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Vista, CA
    Map
    PART 2 OF POST - CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

    *Test bike:


    For initial testing of prototype performance header, we will use this motorcycle:
    2001 California 5th gen with 60,000 miles
    K&N big mouth air filter [See Note f below]
    PC III USB, map dyno tuned in 2013 with OEM California ECU, no O2 sensors installed
    Dynojet O2 sensor resistor terminations installed on OEM O2 sensor leads
    OEM 49 state ECU now installed, PC III not retuned, no O2 sensors installed
    OEM 98/99 VFR headers ceramic coated with Staintune high mount slipon.
    Maintenance performed before dyno testing:
    New air filter, new Denso iridium IUH27#4 plugs, valve clearance adjustment, injectors professionally calibrated, starter valves synched, new thermostat, new silicon coolant hoses, new Engine Ice coolant, oil and filter changed w Mobil 1 0w-30 and Purolator PBL14610 filter



    *Notes:

    Note a - an 8th gen version of the performance header with 'widely spaced' front primaries is in the works for a production run to follow the initial production run of 5th/6th gen headers.

    Note b - If there is significantly greater interest in proving the prototype header on a 6th gen, we have a 6th gen standing by and can use it for the dyno baseline run and test/tuning instead of the 5th gen. For 6th gen test/tuning, we will use the same dyno testing procedure at the same test/tune facility as described for the initial 5th gen test/tune. The 6th gen available for testing currently has ceramic coated 98/99 headers installed with gutted OEM mufflers and a PCV. We would obtain open flowing aftermarket slipon mufflers to optimize testing of the prototype header.

    Note c - Wade recommends keeping the the 51mm od collector exit pipe instead of reducing it to the OEM exit pipe's 49mm od for the following reasons:
    1 - it is probable that reducing the collector diameter will have a [small] negative effect on top end performance
    2 - Wade uses premanufactured tubing merges of very high quality. Reducing the collector diameter would mean that the collector merge exit diameter would be too large for the 49mm od exit pipe, and the labor required to adapt the two components would raise the cost.
    3 - purchasers of a replica header who want to use aftermarket slipons can have the collector end of their slipon expanded to fit the 51mm od exit pipe by any competent exhaust/muffler shop. Two Brothers slipons and OEM mufflers will require exhaust wrap to function as a gasket in place of the OEM 'donut' gasket.
    4 - the collector joint of all slipon midpipes we could think of except TBR are 2" od and slotted at the clamping end. Wade was concerned that a 2" od midpipe that has been slotted to clamp onto the OEM collector pipe is likely to tear at the base of the slots when expanded.
    IMPORTANT - when having a slipon's midpipe expanded to fit this performance header, make certain the muffler shop expands it gradually in two or more small steps. Wade recommends drilling a relief hole at the muffler side ends of the midpipe's slots to distribute stress and reduce the possibility of tearing. Wade tested the viability of expanded slotted 304 stainless steel 18 gauge 2" od tubing by slotting a piece of 2" tubing while I was at his facility. He then expanded the slotted end of the tube in two steps to fit over the 51mm od collector exit pipe with no tearing at the slots.

    Note d - Here is Wade's 1/4" thick stainless steel head stud nut tension flange:
    upload_2018-12-28_23-41-27.jpeg

    Here is the original TBR head stud nut tension flange [Note that flange is bent from tension]:
    upload_2018-12-28_23-41-59.jpeg


    Note e - Original TBR has rough, unfinished joints in the internal flow surfaces at head end collars of primary tubes

    Note f - See RVFR's June 8 2017 post on page 5 of vfrd thread '5th & 6th VFR 800 header build' for photos of standard vs big mouth K&N air filters. Both filters have K&N part number HA-8098

    Note g - Significant improvement can be achieved over OEM gas flow through the exhaust port into the header primaries by using crush gaskets that do not intrude into the gas flow path when installed. The id of OEM VFR crush gaskets reduces to around 30.41mm when installed with header stud nuts torqued to spec. The exhaust port id is 32.45mm - that's a 2mm reduction in gas flow passage diameter. To solve this, we will be confirming Mohawk's recommendation to use GSXR750 crush gaskets between the performance header primaries and the VFR's head.

    Note h - Wade has expressed a modest willingness to build complete exhaust systems in high or low mount configurations for 5th gen VFRs. These full systems would have the same specs as the full systems that were the only configuration in which TBR sold the VFR headers - the TBR headers were only available with a matching midpipe and muffler/canister. Mufflers built by Wade would be available in metal or carbon fiber. I neglected to ask Wade which metals he uses for muffler/canisters or what a full system would cost, but I will ask him to specify materials and pricing. I have not yet introduced the possibility of Wade building a 6th gen full system, but I will ask him if he'd consider it.

    END OF PART 2 OF 2 - That's all, folks
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
  14. NorcalBoy

    NorcalBoy Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,723
    Likes Received:
    260
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Desert Southwest
    Map
    Is this Wade Boyd by chance?.....I saw SF Downhill and thought Norcal...prolly not, if in Socal. Anyway.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  15. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Vista, CA
    Map
    Hi Norcal - nope, it's not Wade Boyd. My username sfdownhill did originate when I was living in San Francisco, but I relocated to socal in 2014.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  16. RVFR

    RVFR Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2006
    Messages:
    7,983
    Likes Received:
    229
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    Olympia Wa.
    Map
    Very good to read and see how it's going, God knows just how many hurdles and bumps this has taken. Great job. Now fingers crossed ;)
     
  17. sfdownhill

    sfdownhill New Member

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Vista, CA
    Map
    Thanks RVFR!


    FYI - for the community's sake, we've started a fresh thread titled

    'New 5th/6th/8th gen performance header now in production in USA'

    in the 'Anything goes' VFRW forum.
     
    RVFR and duccmann like this.
Related Topics

Share This Page